Which Saison yeast gives off the most "lemoney" flavor (like Firestone's Opal)?

[Ted123]

Hello all,
I've been playing around with Saison yeasts, such as Wy 3711 and WLP585 and Yeast Bay's Wallonian . . . . And I am still having trouble nailing this elusive "lemoney" flavor (not just dry and tart, but actually fruity/citrusy).
I don't want to add actual lemon . . . I just want the yeast and the hops to do the trick.
I love the Firestone Walker Opal as well as Saison Bretta from Logsdon, as well as Saison Brett from Boulevard . . . All with this beautiful fresh lemon quality.

Any thoughts about which yeast (and which fermentation temps) might nail this?

Thanks!

 

[tippetsnapper]

I'm intersted in others input as well on this. My take has been more fruity esters in higher fermentation temps, especially the belgian strain, not the french. But I wouldn't describe the esters as lemon. I think you are more likely to find the flavor you are looking for with a modest hop charge at flameout, specifically sorachi ace.

 

[helibrewer]

I just did a Saison using WLP565 with a small starter of WY3711 added after high krausen. I definitely pick up citrus. It finished at 1.003 so it came out a little stronger than I planned. Ferm temp was 80F and I used the Dupont Saison recipe from candisyrup.com

 

[Arrheinous]

Not sure about yeast but Sorachi Ace is supposed to be a very lemony hop.

There was a recent thread about RIS with Brett where someone got lemony characteristics in a 100% Brett porter.

 

[youreanimpulse]

Logsdon is a proprietary yeast blend, so you could try to culture it (if you don't want Brett, culture the regular saison). As a blend it won't have quite the same proportions when cultured. Also they use pear juice to prime. Lemon probably comes more from hops, so I'd try the sorachi ace. I would think start lower 70s and ramp to emphasize esters over phenols. Just a guess, it will of course take experimentation .

 

[HerbieHowells]

Firestone Walter uses hallertau blanc as a dry hop, and I have seen that hop described as fruity and floral with lemongrass overtones. Boulevard uses Amarillo, which I suppose would give you citrus flavors as well. Count this as a third vote for Sorachi Ace. (I actually brewed a Sorachi Ace hopped rye Saison about a year ago, and I seem to remember some nice citrus in there. Nothing special about the recipe, just pilsner, rye malt, and a little acid malt as a water adjustment.)

 

[Weezy]

Yeah, I was going to say add a pinch of sorachi ace at flame out.

 

[philosofool]

Yep, Sorachi Ace + 3711. I have one on tap. The fermentation is beautiful, but I wish it had more malt character. I used flaked wheat (2 lbs.) and 2-row. I slightly prefer it mixed with about 20% if my California common, which gives just the right amount of malt complexity.

 

[Wolfbrau]

Strisselspalt. French hop from the "farmhouse" region with a mildly lemony aroma mixed with noble characteristics. Soriachi Ace is very aggressive and always gives me an off-putting "pine-sol" thing.

 

[Gus_13]

I use 3711 a ton and usually yield lemony flavors. I always start it around 67-68 and let it rise to 72 over two weeks. Drys out nicely and give some lemony flavors almost tartness. I'd use some Sorachi Ace hops as mentioned before and try it with Motueka. Blend of citrus with the lemon undertones. Should get you somewhere close.


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[badlee]

Bobek hops and Belle Saison is a lemonfest

 

[Gus_13]

Bobek hops and Belle Saison is a lemonfest

I need to try Belle Saison again. Last time I used it it became a sour and I didn't get to see the yeast's own flavors.


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[Ted123]

Thanks for all the thoughts so far . . . (Especially about hop choices)
. . . And, what do folks think about the difference between the two yeasts, WL585 (saison III) and 3711 ? It seems like the majority of home brewers gravitate toward the 3711, but I read multiple references to the 585 having a "tart" character?

 

[Gus_13]

Personally I was unimpressed with 585 when I used it. I have used it twice and don't even look at it now in the store. 3711 is a monster and the mouthfeel is phenomenal. I didn't pick up a very noticeable tartness in 585 when I used it.


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[PHDrunk]

I did a Sorachi/3711 saison recently, and fermented on the cold side (65F or so). It came out incredibly lemony and tart but without much of the pepper/spice you might expect from a saison.

FWIW, it seems like two of the commercial examples you mentioned are partially fermented with Brett. A big pitch of healthy Brett can definitely add fruity esters to the finished beer and might be a part of the flavor profile you're looking for.


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[Ted123]

Hi PHDrunk
I do plan on using a bit of Brett in maybe half of the split batch . . . Do have a strain you would recommend for "lemoney" (I was thinking Brett C).
Also, I was gonna co-pitch the Brett in the primary with the 3711, or do you recommend holding the Brett back until the secondary?
Thanks--Ted

 

[PHDrunk]

I've never actually worked with Brett, but I've read fairly extensively about it (and drank plenty of beer with it ). My go to reference for all things funky and sour is The Mad Fermentationist. The most recent post is actually about selecting wort characteristics for expression of either funky or fruity Brett flavors. There seems to be some consensus that 100% Brett beers tend to emphasize fruitiness over funkiness, whereas innoculating a clean fermented beer at secondary with a small amount of Brett leads to higher funkiness. If you're going for fruit, then maybe pitch a big culture of Brett along with your Sacch for primary?

 

[tippetsnapper]

Hi PHDrunk
I do plan on using a bit of Brett in maybe half of the split batch . . . Do have a strain you would recommend for "lemoney" (I was thinking Brett C).
Also, I was gonna co-pitch the Brett in the primary with the 3711, or do you recommend holding the Brett back until the secondary?
Thanks--Ted

3711 is going to plow through those sugars before the brett has a chance to give you a lot of funk. Aside from adding some starches to your wort or mashing with higher temps, it will be a low level of brett. In my experience the fruitiest strain of brett is trois, but more of a tropical/pineapple flavor as opposed to lemon.

 

[Gus_13]

3711 is going to plow through those sugars before the brett has a chance to give you a lot of funk. Aside from adding some starches to your wort or mashing with higher temps, it will be a low level of brett. In my experience the fruitiest strain of brett is trois, but more of a tropical/pineapple flavor as opposed to lemon.

I'm going to have to disagree with plowing through and not leaving anything. I co pitch 3711 with many Brett strains. I am about to bottle a Saisom with 3711 that I pitched a healthy starter of Brett Brux with. It's been going just over a month and it's at 1.002. There is tons of funk and unique flavors that 3711 just doesn't give on its own. In every wort there will be enough complex sugars and left over things for Brett to work on. Not to mention if it's bottled it will continue to change under pressure. Of course this is just my experiences and as always everyone MMV.

I concur about Brett Trois. My favorite strain right now is Claussenii but Trois is a close second.



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[JSutt]

Thought I might be able to add something to this even though the thread's a bit old.

Brewed up a saison a couple weeks ago. 15g (about 1/2 an oz, I guess) of Sorachi Ace as a fwh addition with Fuggles for the flavour additions and used a pack of Mangrove Jack's dry M29 'French Saison' yeast. It absolutely cranked, from 1.065 to 1.005 in about 3 days. Very strong tart lemon flavour when I transfered it to a secondary to sit over winter in the garage, but really really good...I may have sneakily pulled 3 or 4 pints out before sealing the carboy up...!

So yeah, Mangrove Jack's M29 - if you're after lemony saisons and don't mind dry yeast, I'd say it's a winner.

 

[beergolf]

3711 is going to plow through those sugars before the brett has a chance to give you a lot of funk. Aside from adding some starches to your wort or mashing with higher temps, it will be a low level of brett. In my experience the fruitiest strain of brett is trois, but more of a tropical/pineapple flavor as opposed to lemon.

I am going to have to agree with Gus 13 on this one. Brett does not need much to work on. In fact if you watch the Chad Yacobson youtube videos, he mentions that all mashing higher will do is take it longer for the brett to finish.

I do brett saisons all the time and pitch the yeaast, let it do it's thing, then add the brett. All of them have plenty of brett character.

Back to the lemony thing. 3711 with some Nelson Sauvin gives me a good saison.

 

[serum]

I got quite a lemony taste from a saison that had two thirds pilsner to one third spelt malt, 3711 and bobek used as FWH and also late in the boil. I think I chucked some honey in but it all fermented out so there was no real honey flavour. It'll come through if you get the beer really dry.

 

[badlee]

I got quite a lemony taste from a saison that had two thirds pilsner to one third spelt malt, 3711 and bobek used as FWH and also late in the boil. I think I chucked some honey in but it all fermented out so there was no real honey flavour. It'll come through if you get the beer really dry.

I second this.
Bobek is ALL lemon.
3711 is ALL lemon.
Great combo!