Which has more effect on efficiency? Crush, or Sparge?

[sparkyaber]

WOW, I posted here to find out why my efficiency was bad on this batch and this topic has turned into a monster.

I did change the spreadsheet numbers to include the 80% and the 0% and everything worked out. Now you folks are getting way over my head, but I will try to keep up. I don't understand why you would want lower efficiency, and less sparging. I will be looking into those questions, as soon as I get done here.
If you all have links easily accessible, shoot them to me.
Thanks again for all of the help.

 

[The Pol]

Excessive sparging, leads to higher pH and more tannin extraction from grain husks. So, if you have HIGH lauter eff. you are more prone to tannin extraction. If you lower the lauter eff. then you are leaving some sugars in the grain and maintaining the pH buffering power of the grain.

This being said, I want my lauter eff. to be lower so that I can avoid the oversparging potential and the higher pH that is associated with it.

 

[sparkyaber]

Ok, thanks for the quick and easy description. Now the questions are:

First and easy one: Does the higher pH cause the tannin extraction, or are they two different animals caused by the over sparging?

Second: Could manipulating the sparge water with acid to lower the pH minimize
the effect of over sparging?

Palmer's RA spreadsheet has a section about adding acid to lower the pH, but in his brew strong webcast about water, he stated that it is not that important.

 

[Malticulous]

Just ignore that brewcast, it just wants to be ignored.

I add phosphoric acid to my sparge and have had much better results than just letting it be. My beer wants to be bad beer. It must be forced to be good. Adjusting pH was my first step to great beer and higher efficiency.

I don't add acid to the strike watter. I use Calcium Carbonate in that. It works with my watter. I got that from something Gordon Strong wrote.

 

[Kaiser]

First and easy one: Does the higher pH cause the tannin extraction, or are they two different animals caused by the over sparging?

Yes. It is mostly the high pH environment that can happen during a sparge that causes excessive tannin extraction.

Second: Could manipulating the sparge water with acid to lower the pH minimize
the effect of over sparging?

It should, but I generally don't bother.

Palmer's RA spreadsheet has a section about adding acid to lower the pH, but in his brew strong webcast about water, he stated that it is not that important.

Yes you can acidify the sparge water which reduces its alkalinity and with that its ability to raise the pH. But he is correct that it is generally not necessary.

That series of podcasts was actually pretty good.

Kai

 

[sparkyaber]

Now I can't wait to use your spreadsheet with my next batches of beer. I wish I had it when I first started all grain this spring.
I think Conroe was commenting on just the part about the acid additions. At least I hope he was, those podcast really straitened me out on the last few questions about water.
My brew partner and I plan on hammering out some good recipes for some competitions later next year, so this will give me the opportunity to see your theory in action.

 

[sparkyaber]

One last thing, Kai, your write up on your site on efficiency is really good. Now I have to read it 3 times to make it sink in.

 

[Malticulous]

I was commenting on the wrong show.

 

[Denny]

Excessive sparging, leads to higher pH and more tannin extraction from grain husks. So, if you have HIGH lauter eff. you are more prone to tannin extraction. If you lower the lauter eff. then you are leaving some sugars in the grain and maintaining the pH buffering power of the grain.

This being said, I want my lauter eff. to be lower so that I can avoid the oversparging potential and the higher pH that is associated with it.

And to be complete, we need to point out that excessive sparging is more possible with fly sparging than with batch sparging. You need to do quite a few batch sparges before you reach "excessive".

 

[sparkyaber]

Ok, I have an update. I brewed the exact same thing this weekend, and low and behold, I hit my average efficiency (mid-upper 80's). I made sure the grains were double crushed.
So that solved my issues. I did use kai's spreadsheet and it worked perfectly.

Here is a pic of the grain this time around:

I am pretty sure that it was not this fine the last time I brewed this beer.

 

[Jipper]

Looks good, pretty much what our crush is set at.

 

[Kaiser]

I am pretty sure that it was not this fine the last time I brewed this beer.

I was about to say that this crush looked a bit coarse, especially since I seem to see chunks of endosperm that are still fairly enclosed by husks. But given your efficiency this must not have been a problem. Was this a single infusion mash? Did you do a "mash out" ?

Kai

 

[sparkyaber]

I was about to say that this crush looked a bit coarse, especially since I seem to see chunks of endosperm that are still fairly enclosed by husks. But given your efficiency this must not have been a problem. Was this a single infusion mash? Did you do a "mash out" ?

Kai

Yes, it was a single infusion mash, and no I did no mash out. I have tried doing a mash out on a few of my all grains and have really not noticed any difference.

I crushed my own yesterday and it looked about the same, set at .20 one pass.

I am brewing tomorrow, I will take a pic and post it.

 

[Ashz]

This question is for Pol.

When you sparge are you now going by set volumes on known recipes, with your equipment efficiencies factored in? Or are you actually testing what you are putting in the kettle to know when to stop.

You mention your low volume sparges and I am just curious if this has been trial and error with each batch, relying on the equipment? Or have you developed a method with your equipment that is proven regardless of recipe?

Clearly you have tweaked your equipment a heck of a lot over time, I just wonder if there is something that was a huge boost to you for efficiency. The crush did wonders for me and popped me from low 70's to 79-81 right now. I am looking for another factor to key in on here.

So I guess the real question is, what the hell are you tweaking at this point and those efficiencies, that can help me?

To the original OP,

As has been pointed out crush is what ultimately helped me. Which you proved yourself.

 

[sparkyaber]

All right, I am furious. I brewed that batch I posted about above, and got horrible efficiency, I figured it was only the one pass, so I brewed it again today, this time with a double pass through the crusher, and same thing!! I don't get it. I used Kai's efficiency calculator, and it seems I am having a hard time getting it into the brew kettle. I have a fairly high gravity on the first runnings (according to Kai's sheet). It was 1.076. Good conversion right? Now is where it gets interesting. I checked the the runnings about half way through the sparge and they were low, about 1.010. And at the end they were about 1.004. I only had about a half a quart left in the mash tun. I added water to the grain (10 quarts) and check the gravity 1.000. Huh, not a speck of sugar left from the sparge. Well the final gravity was about 1.040, when it should have been about 1.050. My preboil gravity was around 1.036. So after an hour boil, I only got 4 hundredths of a point?
My recipe had:
7# two row american
2# victory
.5# crystal 60
.25 chocolate
Any Ideas, like I said, I am beside myself trying to find out where the sweet stuff went!
Thanks

 

[phatuna]

did you hit about 168F on your sparges?? What was your water to grain ratio in your mash?

 

[sparkyaber]

did you hit about 168F on your sparges?? What was your water to grain ratio in your mash?

Sorry I am a bit flustered. I guess those are important. I pushed the sparge to about 172 (fly sparge) and I used just shy of 3.5 gallons of water for the mash. So, 9.75# per 14 quarts. Almost spot on 1.5 Q/gal.

 

[sparkyaber]

I also should add, I have about 20 all grain batches under my belt, and beside the very first attempt (fly sparged in about 10 min) I have never had this problem. Oh, I guess temp and ph are important. 155 for an hour, and strait 5.4 during the mash.

 

[phatuna]

Sorry Sparky, those were the only two things that I could think of, sounds like you nailed both so you'll have to wait till one of the big boys / girls jumps in to help you troubleshoot...

 

[Denny]

(fly sparged in about 10 min)

Fly sparging should take 60-90 min. in order to adequately rinse the grain. I think this is the source of your problem.

 

[dale1038]

He's saying he did a 10 minute fly on his first batch, and it was bad.

I think he's taking the right amount of time now.

 

[sparkyaber]

Yes, Dale you are correct, I was talking about that one experience. I do take about 60-70 minutes to sparge. I am still perplexed and pissed off. I need to get this answered.

 

[sparkyaber]

All right, I am furious. I brewed that batch I posted about above, and got horrible efficiency, I figured it was only the one pass, so I brewed it again today, this time with a double pass through the crusher, and same thing!! I don't get it. I used Kai's efficiency calculator, and it seems I am having a hard time getting it into the brew kettle. I have a fairly high gravity on the first runnings (according to Kai's sheet). It was 1.076. Good conversion right? Now is where it gets interesting. I checked the the runnings about half way through the sparge and they were low, about 1.010. And at the end they were about 1.004. I only had about a half a quart left in the mash tun. I added water to the grain (10 quarts) and check the gravity 1.000. Huh, not a speck of sugar left from the sparge. Well the final gravity was about 1.040, when it should have been about 1.050. My preboil gravity was around 1.036. So after an hour boil, I only got 4 hundredths of a point?
My recipe had:
7# two row american
2# victory
.5# crystal 60
.25 chocolate
Any Ideas, like I said, I am beside myself trying to find out where the sweet stuff went!
Thanks

Anyone?

I am still at a loss, and need to get this answered before I brew again.

 

[Kaiser]

I added water to the grain (10 quarts) and check the gravity 1.000. Huh, not a speck of sugar left from the sparge.

Did you stir well after adding the water?

Everything else points to having problems during the lauter and possible channeling. But getting 1.000 when testing the grain for residual sugar is odd.

Kai

 

[sparkyaber]

Kai, I thought you left me for dead I was pretty excited when I got the email notification.

If my memory serves, yes we did give the grains a good whip after adding the water. Now there was a lot of particles from the grain in the sample, would that make a difference? I am planning on calibrating my hydrometer like you say in your website, even though it is spot on at 60 degrees F with plain water, I think I will give it a test with the sugar also.

One of the only other things I can think of is it possible there is something wrong with the grains I am getting? Is it even possible? Like they don't convert enough starches to sugars? Or they don't have enough starch in them to begin with?

Lastly could a thermo reading off by a few degrees make a difference? I have calibrated my thermo probe, but it has been acting a weird lately. But it still reads 32-33 degrees F in an ice bath.

What I noticed is that the gravity was high like it is suppose to be at the beginning of the sparge, but when I checked about half way home, (about 3 gallons in the boil pot) it was low, like already at 1.010-1.012.
Here is a little recap:

And lastly, 4 batches 3 of them with this horrible efficiency, and one that was spot on. 2 batches with 2 different recipes.
1st batch : poor, I figured it was the poor crush from midwest (they crushed)
2nd batch: same recipe as the first, spot on 89% made sure it was double crushed from midwest
3rd batch: different recipe, grain from midwests grain room, not from the "back" of their store one pass through their crusher set tight, poor efficiency.
4th batch: same as the the third, two passes through their grain room crusher poor efficiency.
All mashed between 150-154 degrees F. for an hour.
Sparged with 178 degree F water. for at least an hour, maybe an hour and 15 min.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[sparkyaber]

Just checked my hydrometer and it was at 1.082 with 40g of sugar and 160g of water.

 

[Jipper]

I also should add, I have about 20 all grain batches under my belt, and beside the very first attempt (fly sparged in about 10 min) I have never had this problem. Oh, I guess temp and ph are important. 155 for an hour, and strait 5.4 during the mash.

Something had to have changed then, if you were never having this issue before with grains from Midwest. I still don't think the crush matters nearly as much as the sparge does if you are already at 60% or so.

What type of false bottom are you using? what were your numbers before this problem - how far have you dropped in efficency?

 

[Jipper]

One of the only other things I can think of is it possible there is something wrong with the grains I am getting? Is it even possible? Like they don't convert enough starches to sugars? Or they don't have enough starch in them to begin with?

I doubt it. Midwest has a rep for good quality, and I'd say that is near impossible for them to have grains so old that they can't convert well.

What I noticed is that the gravity was high like it is suppose to be at the beginning of the sparge, but when I checked about half way home, (about 3 gallons in the boil pot) it was low, like already at 1.010-1.012.

Sounding more and more like a sparge issue to me. Either channeling or false bottom design. Do you do a recirc at all before you sparge? I find that I have a dead spot in my mash tun at the back - the sparge water kind of sweeps forward to the spigot and doesn't get all of the grain in the back of the tun, so I have to tilt the mash tun forward a couple of times to get that sweet wort out. On a stout i can go from a light brown to black run off when I do this. Could be what you are seeing as well.

 

[sparkyaber]

Thanks for joining in Jipper.
I don't think it is the sparge, or the manifold, since I had been doing great all along. I went from the upper 80%'s to near 90, down to the mid to low 60's. My false bottom is a 4 row cpvc manifold with slits cut into the bottom of all of the manifold except for the one piece going out the spigot. The manifold takes up the whole cooler bottom. I also have a sprinkler arm for the sparge, (fly sparge).

I did check the mash for sugar by adding in 10 quarts of water into the spent grains, mixing it and checking gravity. 1.000 at 60 degrees with lots of grain particles in it. If the particals make any difference?

 

[sparkyaber]

Oh, sorry, I do a vourloff for every mash I have done.

 

[Jipper]

Oh I never left

Could the manifold be clogged, preventing the flow from the back of the mash tun?

So you dropped 30% and changed nothing else? Not your boil kettle, mash tun, ... nothing?

Are you using Midwest kits? If they are telling you they get 60% and that's what you are getting, then that could just be what you get. If you are making your own recipes with their grain, try another vendor just to see.

 

[wrestler63]

Yes, Dale you are correct, I was talking about that one experience. I do take about 60-70 minutes to sparge. I am still perplexed and pissed off. I need to get this answered.

I too went through these issues when I started all grain. I first went to the crush. Started running through twice and it improved. Then went to ordering pre crushed bags. It improved greatly. Then started adding 5.2 ph stabilizer and again got improvement. Lastly I slowed down my sparge and increased the sparge water temp and am now getting around 85%.
In closing, I would say take aim at one thing at a time until your problems are solved.
Cheers

 

[Kaiser]

Kai, I thought you left me for dead I was pretty excited when I got the email notification.

Sorry. I'm on and off. You can also PM me if you need my attention.

Your problem does puzzle me though. It doesn't seem to be a hydrometer problem either.

Are you willing to give batch sparging a try? not because it is better but because it is more predictable for efficiency and I can make more sense of the numbers.

- grain weight
- strike water volume
- First wort gravity
- first wort volume in the kettle (drain until it stops)

- sparge water volume added
- sparge gravity
- sparge volume collected (or total volume after sparge stops running)

I'm with you. Those sugars have to be somewhere.

Kai

 

[sparkyaber]

You bet I will try batch sparging! Being as stubborn as I am, I think (maybe) that I will give it the old college try one more time. If it happens again, I might have to build a new mash tun, because my current one will have gotten run over by my pickup.
Would it help me to post my (your) efficiency spreadsheet?? Email? Can I even post it here?

 

[sparkyaber]

Oh I never left

Could the manifold be clogged, preventing the flow from the back of the mash tun?

So you dropped 30% and changed nothing else? Not your boil kettle, mash tun, ... nothing?

Are you using Midwest kits? If they are telling you they get 60% and that's what you are getting, then that could just be what you get. If you are making your own recipes with their grain, try another vendor just to see.

Jipper, after your first post, The clogged manifold was the first thing that popped into my head also. But I still had no sugar left in the mash tun after the sparge. I basically had an empty tun, give or take a quart, I added 10 qts of plain 60 degree water and took a gravity reading.
As for things changing- no hardware has been changed at all, temps are with in a few degrees of each other. Ambient air temp to a huge hit, but so what....... right?
Yes, about the kits, but I have gotten great efficiency with their kits also.

 

[sonetlumiere85]

Take your entire mash/sparge setup apart. Clean and soak all parts, then reassemble. Rule things out methodically, take careful notes, etc.

 

[sparkyaber]

Take your entire mash/sparge setup apart. Clean and soak all parts, then reassemble. Rule things out methodically, take careful notes, etc.

Having that cpvc manifold makes it easy to disassemble so I do that on every brew day. That also helped me rule out the plugged false bottom.
The only hardware that I have changed so far, is that I returned a rotating sparge arm and made a manifold for the sparge. But this was done many many batched ago. Like 10-12 batches. Never had a problem, as a matter of fact, My efficiencies went up a little and stayed more consistent when I changed it.
I also changed the female adapter from the manifold to the valve on the bottom of the mash tun......Maybe it is a possessed female adapter.......

 

[waldoar15]

That recipe has a pretty high ratio of specialty to base malt. Try switching to six row if you want to keep using that recipe and see if that helps your conversion.