Where to find Empty Half kegs (15.5 GL)?

[3PegBrew]

There's another thread somewhere on here (I'm willing to bet more than 1 thread) where this is already discussed a million times.

 

[DouglassBrewer]

The BevMo near me said they have slightly dented ones all the time that I can swoop up for $40.

 

[wailingguitar]

I assume that a non-brewery owned distributor has to put a cooperage deposit down with the brewery. Possibly for internal accounting purposes a brewery owned distributor may have to as well.

True, I misspoke myself in my post, apologies!... it's an issue that gets my dander up and I didn't fix an omission. What I should have said was something along the lines that breweries are forced by the market to take a low deposit from distribution, retail sometimes claims a higher deposit. Maybe a retailer gives you 30 days to return the keg or you forfeit the deposit. Retailers, in this case actually make money by NOT getting the kegs back. This is the money that the brewery never sees.


Further;
Deposit or not, it hurts the brewery... they could easily stand to lose $100-$120 per keg that doesn't make it back to them. Let's say a brewer loses 5% of it's cooperage per year (A/B estimates they lose 10-15%). Let's assume this is a medium/small brewer maybe doing 5k bbls draft/year. That is 20k keg rotations out in the field. Typically the figure for determining # of kegs required is 3 per rotation, so that is 6667 (ooo!) kegs this brewery needs. We can guess they will lose 333 kegs in a year. 333x(a conservative loss of $100/ unit) is a $33,300 loss per year from keg theft alone. Think about that number folks, that's hell for a small business! Do you REALLY want to be a part of that?...

 

[3PegBrew]

I say we make a documentary film and post it on here as a sticky. "why to buy a keg: a brewer's tale"

 

[Dekowski411]

The BevMo near me said they have slightly dented ones all the time that I can swoop up for $40.

That’s what I asked the liquor store owner that sold me the Keg... My words "Is this keg legit because it won’t be returned in the same condition as you sold it to me", he said "They're yours" and gave me a receipt to prove it!

Taken into account, yeah kegs are lost/stolen, but they do have a life expectancy. If a keg is returned 20-25 times it would be safe to say that it has paid for itself probably twice. The ones I got were beat to hell, dents galore, which they were still functional and probably would have been sent off to get refurbished after another 5 or so returns. If they are beyond the point of repair then they probably get returned to the manufacturer by the brewer to be made into new kegs or scraped. Breweries know that kegs go thru wear and tear and will have to be replaced at some point.

MORAL OF THE THREAD: You can acquire Full Kegs (15.5 GL) from your local Distributor or Liquor store as long as it is understood by the selling and purchasing party that payment is not a deposit.

If the Brewery is taking losses greater than expected on their transportation containers then they would just raise the deposit of their kegs to offset that cost. No business is going to sit back a watch their customers take their profit!!!!

 

[Dekowski411]

I say we make a documentary film and post it on here as a sticky. "why to buy a keg: a brewer's tale"

Probably could been a chapter in the book "Freakonomics"! The rabbit hole goes deeper on this subject... I'm sorry no company is going to let money get taken from them...

 

[wailingguitar]

That’s what I asked the liquor store owner that sold me the Keg... My words "Is this keg legit because it won’t be returned in the same condition as you sold it to me", he said "They're yours" and gave me a receipt to prove it!

Taken into account, yeah kegs are lost/stolen, but they do have a life expectancy. If a keg is returned 20-25 times it would be safe to say that it has paid for itself probably twice. The ones I got were beat to hell, dents galore, which they were still functional and probably would have been sent off to get refurbished after another 5 or so returns. If they are beyond the point of repair then they probably get returned to the manufacturer by the brewer to be made into new kegs or scraped. Breweries know that kegs go thru wear and tear and will have to be replaced at some point.

MORAL OF THE THREAD: You can acquire Full Kegs (15.5 GL) from your local Distributor or Liquor store as long as it is understood by the selling and purchasing party that payment is not a deposit.

If the Brewery is taking losses greater than expected on their transportation containers then they would just raise the deposit of their kegs to offset that cost. No business is going to sit back a watch their customers take their profit!!!!

Just because a distributor or retailer sell you a keg, doesn't necessarily mean they have the legal right to. Some may not even realize this, but that isn't much of an excuse (legally speaking, it ISN'T an excuse). They may or may not be doing this with the brewery's consent. If they do not have the brewery's consent, then both the "seller" and the "purchaser" are dealing in stolen goods. This is NOT a victimless crime.

Breweries can't realistically charge deposits for the value of the keg, the vast majority of distributors wouldn't carry their brands. There have been pushes to get distributors to accept higher deposits, but they simply won't do it. Believe me, breweries would like to have a full value+ replacement expense deposit... they would like to, but the market won't allow it. SO, the industry ends up eating thousands and thousands of dollars each year because some irresponsible, dishonest people think they are "entitled". I say SHAME on anyone that knowingly allows this to happen and turns a blind eye.

 

[Dekowski411]

http://probrewer.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-3480.html

http://www.plastickegs.com/

Plastic Kegs...

See the industry responded to the issue... which the plastic kegs are probably cheaper and they will most likely charge the same depost for the plastic ones as they do the steel kegs.

Again businesses won't let customers, or whoever, steal profits... it's stupid business!

Oh yeah, polymers are better insulators but they do break down under extreme heat. Problem solved... I'll take my blind eye elsewhere!

 

[Dekowski411]

in addition... the profit margin for keg beer is significantly greater than that of bottled, canned or any packaged product. Maybe the breweries have a blind eye too!

 

[wailingguitar]

True, the profit margin on draft beer is significantly higher than that of bottled beer. HOWEVER, this isn't an indication that draft beer is overpriced so much as it is an indication of the high cost of bottling beer. By charging what the market will bear for bottled product, the brewer is forced to take an EXTREMELY low margin. The only way for bottled beer to be profitable is to sell in extreme volume. Draft beer, which is a fractional amount of sales for most breweries, serves to balance the relative profit loss on the bottled product. If you take a look at margins across a wide range of industries, you would find that brewer's margins on draft beer sold through distributors is still relatively low, and bottled product laughably so.

Recyclable plastic kegs are a possible solution, but many in the industry from the brewers through final retail have issues with them... some logical, some not so.

Theft is a fact of life, the brewers don't like it, but there is little recourse. The market drives their business, if distributors won't pay in higher deposits (and for the most part they WON'T), brewers are forced to accept their terms. It is the nature of the beast. They have two choices; hike prices up to the level at which they can cover the loss (risking loss of sales) or take it in the rear.

So, Dek, if you think you understand the brewing industry so well and can help them make/save money, how about you go out and do some consulting? Let's see what the people out there facing this every day have to say about your ideas...

 

[Dekowski411]

Funny you say that because I am a Consultant... Professionally ... I will say that it is a dynamic situation but it is hardly the problem that you make it out to be!

It all comes down to acountability... if the brewery's don't account for thier equipment then who's fault is it? It's a risk that they are willing to take because there will always be HUGE profits.

 

[Dekowski411]

As for the small time breweries! Buy plastic kegs, they're cheaper and your chances of someone scraping them are slim. I won't charge you for that one wailingguitar.

 

[camiller]

True, I misspoke myself in my post, apologies!... it's an issue that gets my dander up and I didn't fix an omission. What I should have said was something along the lines that breweries are forced by the market to take a low deposit from distribution, retail sometimes claims a higher deposit. Maybe a retailer gives you 30 days to return the keg or you forfeit the deposit. Retailers, in this case actually make money by NOT getting the kegs back. This is the money that the brewery never sees.

While I can't speak for all retailers, the one I work at only charges the same deposit as the distributor charges us. We also will take a keg back no matter how old and even will take a keg that was not bought from us for the full deposit (that we would charge) because we get credit back from the distributor in the same amount. We neither make or lose money on cooperage even if the keg does not get returned we only break even.

About the only way we make money on cooperage is occasionally a police officer will show up with some kegs confiscated from a party where minors were being served and just give them to us, we still get credit back from the distributor. That doesn't happen very often though.

 

[wailingguitar]

While I can't speak for all retailers, the one I work at only charges the same deposit as the distributor charges us. We also will take a keg back no matter how old and even will take a keg that was not bought from us for the full deposit (that we would charge) because we get credit back from the distributor in the same amount. We neither make or lose money on cooperage even if the keg does not get returned we only break even.

About the only way we make money on cooperage is occasionally a police officer will show up with some kegs confiscated from a party where minors were being served and just give them to us, we still get credit back from the distributor. That doesn't happen very often though.

This is good, and the way that it should be. Most businesses are, I would like to believe, run by honest individuals. You can, however see how those who aren't so honest could easily turn profit on it.

 

[Dekowski411]

I think taking a Credit Card number from a customer might work and signing an agreement stating if they don't return it the they get charged the cost of the keg and a standard processing charge. if the dont sign the agreement.. No Keg! This way no money is being exchanged if everyone plays nice. It might even create a few jobs if keg losses are a growing problem!

 

[wailingguitar]

Funny you say that because I am a Consultant... Professionally ... I will say that it is a dynamic situation but it is hardly the problem that you make it out to be!

It all comes down to acountability... if the brewery's don't account for thier equipment then who's fault is it? It's a risk that they are willing to take because there will always be HUGH profits.

Consultant in which industry? Are you saying you are a consultant for commercial breweries?

The probrewer.com thread you posted seems to support most of what I said, if you look you will find quite a few more threads there on this very topic. Look at the example of A/B, losing MILLIONS each year. A/B may be a lot of things, but they certainly aren't slouches when it comes to squeezing the most out of a nickel... they have to, their profits are razor thin. They aren't going to throw that money away. As to smaller breweries accounting for their cooperage, how do you suppose they do that? Microchips? That would work, but the cost of tracking them would be insane. Plastic kegs may be cheaper, but there are still complaints amongst a number of their users (and former users); unexpected failures, persistent odors that required premature scrapping of the keg, etc. There are some disposable (100%recyclable) kegs on the market that show promise, but then you're still putting your beer in plastic which doesn't sound like a great idea for beer that might be out in the field for an extended period of time. Some plastic kegs do have stainless liners and that seems like a good compromise.

The profit margins are NOT huge in a three tier system. They simply aren't, brewers make money on volume.

 

[wailingguitar]

I think taking a Credit Card number from a customer might work and signing an agreement stating if they don't return it the they get charged the cost of the keg and a standard processing charge. if the dont sign the agreement.. No Keg! This way no money is being exchanged if everyone plays nice. It might even create a few jobs if keg losses are a growing problem!

This is a great idea, and I know of at least one small brewer that does this with their retail customers. If retail outlets would do this and, in the event of a non return, pass the $ back through the system to the brewer, it would save a lot of grief.

 

[Dekowski411]

Software industry... I know alot about excepting risks

 

[Dekowski411]

All I'm saying that if it wasn't a risk the breweries wanted to take then the deposits would be much higher... problem is big time breweries except it as a loss and go about their business, they sell so much that they can absorb the cost. The little man would have some problems.

If you truely believe that this is a major problem for breweries then buy stock in plastic keg manufacturing! Other than the Credit Card deposits, I see this as a great option!

Hell, I bet 3M has something already sitting on the shelf in their R&D dept. thats been tested and evaluated.

 

[wailingguitar]

Software industry... I know alot about excepting risks

Knowledge of one business form does not equal knowledge of all... I can point you to quite a few defunct breweries that have fallen victim to this. It is hubris.

My late wife and I had a business doing consulting on OSHA regs., we had clients of many sorts from medical clinics, to lead refineries to food and beverage (Rogue Ales being a client). I would never have deigned to suggest to one of these companies that I knew better than they how to handle certain aspects of their business.

I have also worked in many capacities in the brewing industry; material maintenance, packaging, brewing and consulting.

 

[Lumpyyyyy]

I found one on Craigslist today for $30. Picking it up this afternoon. I tried calling A/B and local distributors to no avail. At this point, CL is the best way to go for me.

 

[Xtant]

One other note...local laws may prevent kegs from being returned.

The kegs in my town (possibly state) have a serialized zip tie attached. The zip tie serial is traced back to the original purchaser. This helps prosecute those responsible for underage drinking, out of control parties, etc. If that tag is missing or damaged, the liquor stores cannot accept the return.

I have seen numerous Local CL ads saying they only wanted their deposit money back.

 

[Dekowski411]

One other note...local laws may prevent kegs from being returned.

The kegs in my town (possibly state) have a serialized zip tie attached. The zip tie serial is traced back to the original purchaser. This helps prosecute those responsible for underage drinking, out of control parties, etc. If that tag is missing or damaged, the liquor stores cannot accept the return.

I have seen numerous Local CL ads saying they only wanted their deposit money back.

That's in Kentucky? Kind of seems silly... all the kids have to do is cut the tag off and there goes the proof.

 

[Rabbit_Jake]

So, buying a keg of beer and not returning it is illegal but buying one off CL from someone who did that very same thing absolves you of all wrong doing?

 

[bengerman]

i actually talked a bit with a bartender at Uber tavern (they sell kegs to go)
she said that the distributor charges Uber the deposit, too. in their case, the dist. actually charges them a larger deposit than they charge their customers.

as with most deposits, it's not the price of the object, it's incentive to bring it back.

i work at a paint store, and we rent out professional paint sprayers. we charge a $75 deposit for a rental (plus the actual cost of renting it) retail on the unit is between $800 and $1200.

 

[Dekowski411]

i actually talked a bit with a bartender at Uber tavern (they sell kegs to go)
she said that the distributor charges Uber the deposit, too. in their case, the dist. actually charges them a larger deposit than they charge their customers.

as with most deposits, it's not the price of the object, it's incentive to bring it back.

i work at a paint store, and we rent out professional paint sprayers. we charge a $75 deposit for a rental (plus the actual cost of renting it) retail on the unit is between $800 and $1200.

Yeah but a credit card is probably given or some sort of signed agreement so if the sprayer isnt returned your company doesnt take a loss, then you would fill out a police report if it is missing. Which you have that person's contact info.

In addition, with equipment rental you are renting and being billed for a pre-determined amount of time... not the same with a keg.

 

[Xtant]

So, buying a keg of beer and not returning it is illegal but buying one off CL from someone who did that very same thing absolves you of all wrong doing?

You just don't know. I bought two sankes for $75 off CL. The guy I bought it from was a brewer getting out of the hobby. He had 4 sankes he had collected over the years off of CL. There's no way to know if these were ill-gotten.

And that goes for anything you purchase off CL or eBay or whatever. Was that really grandma's old necklace or did the seller steal it out the locker room? Is that new in the box TV a good price or did it "fall off a truck?" You don't know.

 

[mikeal]

Check Craigslist for college towns. They seem to have more and cheaper kegs available.

 

[blueballsbrewer]

Paying a deposit does not equal buying a keg. The deposit does not transfer ownership of the keg. It IS illegal to keep the keg. Whether you care or not is the question.

IB4TGUIF

Could you possibly provide some sort of proof of this rather than just saying it is illegal. I have yet to find any blotter info on beer party's being raided weeks later by the cops simply due to a beer keg not being returned. :rockin::rockin:

 

[Jebediahscooter]

I was patient and called around local brew pubs and whatnot...they sell off their old kegs occasionally. Eventually, a guy I know who owns a nice beer bar and I were chatting, and I mentioned looking for kegs. Turns out, he had two old ones belonging to a regional brewery with whom his bar no longer does business. He called the brewery, which is about an hour and a half away, and they told him that they didn't want them (either it wasn't worth their drive or there was some fallout from the bar not serving their beer anymore, who knows). Boom, free kegs and a clear conscience. I could have picked one up off of craigslist, but I just asked around and made inquiries for about a month before it paid off. I had a call back from a brewpub about a week later saying that they could sell me a couple of decommissioned kegs for like $30 a pop, which I would have jumped on if not for the serendipitous find at the bar.