Where to Buy Birko Corporation's Patco 376 100% Oil Based Defoamer

[CodeSection]

Since others wanted to know and at the same time verify it was the Patco 376 100% oil based defoamer....

About two years ago after talking with the Birko Corporation, I found Adventures in Homebrewing buys Birko Corporation's Patco 376 in bulk and repackages it. I just got off the phone with their Ann Arbor store and warehouse and nothing has changed. They still buy the Patco 376 in bulk and repackage it.

Here is the link where I bought mine......

https://www.homebrewing.org/Foam-Control_p_1773.html

 

[Carolina_Matt]

I must have missed the original discussion. Is this supposed to be better (or better for you) than fermcap?

 

[day_trippr]

Supposedly, because it's simply a veggie oil, as opposed to a "chemical" like polydimethylsiloxane...

Cheers!

 

[CodeSection]

I must have missed the original discussion. Is this supposed to be better (or better for you) than fermcap?

Fermcap is silicone based antifoamer and the FDA has said it should be filtered and removed from the final product. In this case, the beer. I suspect most homebrewers do not filter their beer and if they do, probably not fine enough to remove the silicone.

Thus, Birko Corporation's Patco 376 is a better and safer alternative defoamer to use in starters or BK to control krausen or hot break boil overs. It works great!

https://www.birkocorp.com/brewing-distilling/products/

 

[Robert65]

FWIW, the Government says commercial brewers must filter if using just about ANY process aids -- including finings which, by definition and design, settle out and are not carried into the consumer's beer, and in fact are specifically intended for unfiltered cask beers. It's mainly a matter of labeling requirements, and possibly regulators who don't fully understand the industries and processes they oversee. We aren't required to filter these things out just because we are not regulated. It doesn't mean that any of these aids pose an actual risk of harm. Fermcap is bound to and settled with the yeast.

BUT, I am philosophically attracted by the idea of an antifoam that may also serve as a yeast nutrient. Something that adds, not just removes, multitasking, win win, and all. I've already ordered some of this, and am eager to try it in place of Fermcap, which I was about due to restock anyway.

 

[CodeSection]

....Fermcap is bound to and settled with the yeast.

BUT, I am philosophically attracted by the idea of an antifoam that may also serve as a yeast nutrient. Something that adds, not just removes, multitasking, win win, and all. I've already ordered some of this, and am eager to try it in place of Fermcap, which I was about due to restock anyway.

You may be correct, however, everything I have read mentions that the silicone is not totally bound to the yeast or totally stays in the trub and that is why they also recommend filtering or using a centrifuge. I'm not sure why one would want to use a silicone additive when it could be avoided. To each their own.

I think you will be pleasantly surprised with the Patco 376 product! Here are just two companies that discuss Fermcap S and/or silicone based defoamers.

From BSG which sells Fermcap. https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/fermcap-s-4-kg

"FermCap® S is a unique emulsion of an extremely effective surface active agent Dimethylpolysiloxane which prevents foam formation by reducing surface tension. It is used to control foam in kettle and during fermentation. It is completely removed from the beer after fermentation by the yeast and filtration."

From Birko Corporation which sells both silicone and oil based defoamers. https://www.birkocorp.com/resources/blog/white_papers/dont-lose-your-head/

"In the United States, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) controls the type and use of antifoams and process aids. For silicone antifoams, the FDA states that no more than 10 ppm of active silicone can be used and that the antifoam must either be filtered or centrifuged prior to packaging to remove the antifoam. When beer is filtered with diatomaceous earth (DE) or Perlite and then followed by a sheet filter, this is adequate to remove the silicone from the beer prior to packaging. If only a sheet filter is used to filter the beer, it is not recommended to use a silicone based antifoam as the molecule is too large and can blind the filter, making for a long transfer. In this case, it is better to use a vegetable oil type antifoam that will not blind a sheet or membrane filter. It takes a large amount of these antifoams to do the job but since they do not have to be filtered and can actually save or feed the yeast, there is a benefit."

 

[505-Brewer]

Supposedly, because it's simply a veggie oil, as opposed to a "chemical" like polydimethylsiloxane...

Cheers!

Everything is a chemical!

 

[505-Brewer]

Fermcap is silicone based antifoamer and the FDA has said it should be filtered and removed from the final product. In this case, the beer. I suspect most homebrewers do not filter their beer and if they do, probably not fine enough to remove the silicone.

Thus, Birko Corporation's Patco 376 is a better and safer alternative defoamer to use in starters or BK to control krausen or hot break boil overs. It works great!

https://www.birkocorp.com/brewing-distilling/products/

Most breweries don’t filter either......

 

[CodeSection]

Most breweries don’t filter either......

Good to know. So they are not compliant with the FDA regs? If not, wouldn't that create a liability and jeopardize their license?

 

[day_trippr]

Everything is a chemical!

Of course. That was my point - which is why I put it in quotes

Cheers!

 

[Vale71]

You may be correct, however, everything I have read mentions that the silicone is not totally bound to the yeast or totally stays in the trub and that is why they also recommend filtering or using a centrifuge. I'm not sure why one would want to use a silicone additive when it could be avoided. To each their own.

For that matter neither filtration nor centrifugation are guaranteed to remove 100,00% of anything so if 0,0% residue is your goal you need to avoid using it altogether. For commercial operations you don't have to list the process additive on the label if what is left in the final product is reduced to "technically unavoidable levels". Currently what is left after filtration is considered "technically unavoidable" and hence greenlighted for labelling exemption. This is all just a legal issue without any actual consideration for consumer health. Known really harmful substances all have a hard limit (possibly equal to 0) set in the legislation and non-compliance is not allowed (i.e. there is no "technically unavoidable" clause).

A little piece of advice if you want to go the natural defoaming agent route. These are lipids which are subject to rapid staling. Buy the smallest quantity you can if you don't want to end up dumping most of it as it starts smelling bad.

FYI filtration or centrifugation do not remove the silicone defoamer directly. It first needs to be absorbed by the yeast which will in turn be removed by filtration. Any residual which was not captured by yeast will still be in the beer after filtration. You'd need some form of nano-filtration to remove it directly which would unavoidably remove much more than just the defoamer, therefore the "technically unavoidable" clause can be invoked.

 

[CodeSection]

....A little piece of advice if you want to go the natural defoaming agent route. These are lipids which are subject to rapid staling. Buy the smallest quantity you can if you don't want to end up dumping most of it as it starts smelling bad...

Thanks for the heads up. I bought two 1 oz bottles. One has not been opened and the other is nearly finished. I cannot detect any bad smells or spoilage.

 

[Vale71]

If you can buy it is such tiny amounts then you should be fine.

A couple of years ago I tried Hopsteiner's equivalent product which is made from spent hops that underwent CO2 extraction (to satisfy the riduculous German beer legislation) but it's only available in a 1 liter bottle and I could use maybe 5% of that before it went bad and had to be dumped. It ain't cheap either so now I'm back to using good old silicone-based antifoamer which lasts forever...

 

[Carolina_Matt]

Interesting. I can't imagine that 5-10 drops would harm my body when it's spread out in 5 gallons, but this stuff is pretty much the same price so it's worth a try if it works just as well. I ferment in a keg and typically put 10 drops of fermcap right after pitching the yeast. I still have blow-off, so who knows how much it's actually working.

 

[CodeSection]

If you can buy it is such tiny amounts then you should be fine....

Perfect! Too bad you do not live nearby as I have a 3/4 full 1 oz bottle of Fermcap I would give you. I have no plans of ever going back to using Fermcap that uses silicone regardless of how little of the silicone is used or stays in the beer.

For me, 100% vegetable oil is a much better and safer alternative.

Thanks for the education!

 

[SanPancho]

New belgium tested this. Using olive oil. The yeast didnt like it if i recall. Might have been as a oxygenation alternative test, i cant remember exactly. Either way, might not be applicable to home usage unless you’re constantly reusing yeast.

 

[CodeSection]

Interesting. I can't imagine that 5-10 drops would harm my body when it's spread out in 5 gallons, but this stuff is pretty much the same price so it's worth a try if it works just as well. I ferment in a keg and typically put 10 drops of fermcap right after pitching the yeast. I still have blow-off, so who knows how much it's actually working.

You should try the Patco 376 and report back. I believe you will be pleased. FWIW, I use it regularly in starters and the BK. I only used it once in the CF10 where I filled it up with ~12.8 gallons of which was about 1.5 gallons more than usual. In all cases, it worked flawlessly.

With my current 3.6L starter going for 53 hours, I put in one drop when the krausen started and as you can see, it has prevented it from returning.

Just after using one drop of Patco 376

Moments ago after 53 hours stirring

 

[Robert65]

New belgium tested this. Using olive oil. The yeast didnt like it if i recall. Might have been as a oxygenation alternative test, i cant remember exactly. Either way, might not be applicable to home usage unless you’re constantly reusing yeast.

Various trials have been done to see if olive oil might be an alternative aid to sterol synthesis in place of oxygenation. None has been ultimately successful but I don't recall the exact reasons.

What is your thought on effects on reusing yeast? Curious because I repitch my yeast for many, many generations.

 

[SanPancho]

my bad. confused it with some other study.

it said that the effects were slower ferments and increased esters. (esters still within manufacturers spec) it also improved shelf life in terms of oxidation. so might not be bad for home use since we're not under commercial time constraints. maybe even a good hazy technique to try out.

but if you do repitch serially you might want to read the paper just to make sure nothing else pops out. its free on the web. new belgium olive oil research in the google machine.

 

[Robert65]

Patco 376 works!

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

Unfortunately AIH & all of its affiliates (see pic for full list) stopped carrying the Birko stuff.

They now only sell fermcap S even if the description on the website says otherwise!

I can only find the Birko stuff being sold in bulk. I've been using it for years (even if it gets old) and never had any ill effects. Really would prefer to use it over the fermcap s especially with the FDA warning.

Anyone know of other vendors who carry it in smaller amounts?

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

Bump

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

Does anyone know where to find the Patco 376 in small quantities suitable for homebrew?