When to make the jump?

[olotti]

I went from mr.beer to all grain that was my experience. Now I won a ff league to get all my equipment which cost upward of 600$ and I use a 10gal round igloo cooler, but I bought a ss 10 gal pot and a 5 gal pot and I went big and went to jay bird to buy a nice custom false bottom and a custom immersion chiller forget the company, I did get the aeration system from northern brewer with the wand, I love it I hated shaking the carboy, then bought a refractometer, a homebrew kit which came with buckets and all the other stuff, auto siphon, bottling siphon etc. it adds up even for a diy simple way but there were a couple things I wanted top notch like the immersion chiller and false bottom. Oh there's also the propane burner Bayou brand I bought. It just adds up but I don't see me needing new stuff since I've had positive results with my equipment, sure it'd be nice to pump from mlt to kettle have a whirlpool etc but I find the results I've had are fine on a simple system but it does cost a lot to start out. I figure I can make a IPa for 40$ total otherwise id be spending 90-100$ for the same mount of beer so it pays you back, I do 5 go batches. Oh I also bought 4 glass car boys 2 5 gal and 2 6.5 gal and those are expensive but I like em gives me 3 fermenters with two for secondary's.

 

[fosaisu]

I do not do yeast starters yet but plan on doing so soon. I also do not have an aeration system for my wort but will soon. Are these things that I should be doing before going all grain?

Since we're talking, these are both good things to address (yeast first IMO), either now as you shift over to all grain or in the immediate future.

Assuming you use liquid yeasts, there's pretty broad consensus that using a starter will get you better results. You can go cheap and easy, make your starter in a gallon jar and just shake it up every so often. Or spend $45 for a StirStarter (I broke my fancy 2L Erlenmeyer Flask and now just use my gallon jar on top of the StirStarter).

I've been using an O2 wand system for a while now but can't say for certain whether it has improved my beer (I've made enough improvements tom my brewing over time that it's difficult to compare back). So I'd put this at the back of the list behind yeast starters and all grain brewing. Here's a thread discussing various options, I posted my preference there.

 

[wanderlost]

I started with AG. It's not that hard. I love the book Brew Better Beer which gives great basic AG instructions with pictures to help - this gave me the confidence to go straight to AG.

 

[Gerry_P]

Maybe not, but I just did a 1.055 Scottish 80 export at 1.055 that took about 5 days to get going so some extra oxygen couldn't hurt.

Hey, another Scotch ale fan! Were you using the McEwan's strain and a starter? I've never found that strain to be particularly slow, considering my low 60s fermentation temps. White labs recommends a bit higher temps than Wyeast for some reason. I've done 2 wee heavies and an 80/- within the past few months using Wyeast/WL/WL respectively, and all were finished in a couple weeks without additional aeration. I will say that the Scotch strain takes a while to hit its stride during conditioning, around a month in my experience.

Btw, when I pitch my yeast I decant almost all of the starter (the non-yeast part, of course), add some of my wort, and swirl that around for a couple minutes. Then I pitch into the fermenter and shake that. I'm probably giving my buddies (get it? yeast? BUDdies? Cuz, you know, they reproduce by...ah never mind) a little more air that way.

 

[Gerry_P]

So let's say that I want to do it and I don't want to do BIAB. Suggestions?

I would suggest the list of equipment/prices in my earlier post.

 

[brewshki]

Hey, another Scotch ale fan! Were you using the McEwan's strain and a starter? I've never found that strain to be particularly slow, considering my low 60s fermentation temps. White labs recommends a bit higher temps than Wyeast for some reason. I've done 2 wee heavies and an 80/- within the past few months using Wyeast/WL/WL respectively, and all were finished in a couple weeks without additional aeration. I will say that the Scotch strain takes a while to hit its stride during conditioning, around a month in my experience.



Btw, when I pitch my yeast I decant almost all of the starter (the non-yeast part, of course), add some of my wort, and swirl that around for a couple minutes. Then I pitch into the fermenter and shake that. I'm probably giving my buddies (get it? yeast? BUDdies? Cuz, you know, they reproduce by...ah never mind) a little more air that way.

I'm really trying to broaden my horizons and the one scotch ale I had before was awesome. I actually used the burton ale strain with no starter. Just pitched the vial in. Did you bottle or keg it? Did you condition in the fermenter or bottles? If you bottled, how much priming sugar did you use?

 

[brewshki]

Alright, I'm going to do it. I've decided. I want to do it haha. And I am thinking B3's cooler system. I also think I want the thermometers in them.

 

[Gerry_P]

I'm really trying to broaden my horizons and the one scotch ale I had before was awesome. I actually used the burton ale strain with no starter. Just pitched the vial in. Did you bottle or keg it? Did you condition in the fermenter or bottles? If you bottled, how much priming sugar did you use?

I don't think that strain is recommended for Scottish/Scotch ales, just because it probably produces some flavors that aren't consistent with that style. Of course that doesn't mean the beer doesn't taste great.
If you can't get the Scotch ale yeast, which is McEwans' strain for both Wyeast and White Labs versions, try Wyeast 1084 Irish ale or Wyeast 1338 Alt. Noonan recommends those strains in his book "Scotch Ale".
White Labs says it's OK to just dump the vial in, but I think you would have seen activity faster if you had used a starter or pitched 2 vials. A starter is more economical and very easy to do. I've been doing small 2.5 gallon batches and I've used a starter for all of them. In addition to faster fermentation, I think my beers taste a little "cleaner" with starters. The Mr. Malty Pitch Rate Calculator is a nice tool that tells you if you need a starter and how big it should be.
I bottled my Scotch ales (actually all my beer, I don't have a keg setup), and I carbonated it to 2 vols. I think that was about 1.75 ounces of DME for a couple gallons, but I forgot to write the exact number down. I left the 80/- in the primary for 2 weeks, the wee heavies for 3 or 4. I batched primed, then bottled. I don't do secondaries any more. Like I mentioned before, these beers really started to shine after about a month in the bottle but will benefit from additional aging, especially the wee heavies.

I used this recipe with a few minor tweaks for one of the wee heavies and it turned out great. You'd be amazed at the flavor you get from such a simple recipe:
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=8071.0
Note: Traquair House uses East Kent Goldings hops, not Northern Brewer. I don't think it makes a huge difference though. If you want I can give you the exact recipe I used, it's a little easier to work with.

 

[Gerry_P]

I just remembered something about yeast: If you're not using a starter, I think the Wyeast smack-packs might have a slight edge over White Labs. The nutrients in the smack-pack make the yeast active prior to pitching, which might get fermentation started faster. That's how it's supposed to work anyway.

 

[Bosh]

I know the OP doesn't want to do BIAB but what's really important is that it's really easy to keep your cost down if you want to. The ONLY thing I went out and bought when I started AG was a big BIAB bag and a roll of aluminum foil.

How I do stuff reaaaaaally simply:
-Heat up mash water. On my stove.
-Mash in a 5 gallon dumpling steamer pot wrapped in lots and lots of aluminum foil to keep in the heat. Not having a bigger pot means I have to do partial mash if I want a big beer but that's OK.
-During the mash heat up more water in some stew pots.
-Dump hot water from stew pots into bottling bucket and dunk sparge in my bottling bucket.
-Divide sparge and mash water between my 5 gallon mash pot and my biggest stew pot and boil hops.
-Put both pots in the bath tub to cool them down. Throw bottles of ice/change bath tub water as necessary.
-Rehydrate yeast.
-Dump everything into the fermenter from the pots (not really bothering to strain just not pouring in the last bit of trub that has sunk to the bottom of the pots).
-Pitch.

Not pretty but I've been managing pretty decent efficiency, zero infections on this set-up and the beer tastes good. Saves me a crap-load of money over using extract without having to make basically any investment at all.

I'm sure you can do something equivalently simple without BIAB. Just strip out everything but the basics. All you're really doing is sticking hot water and grain together and then taking the water out. You don't need to spend thousands of dollars to do that.

 

[madscientist451]

If I were to do it, what system would you recommend? I really don't have thousands to spend on a sculpture and I don't have the ability to make one.

Start with a brew pot and a BIAB bag and use your kitchen stove. You don't need a sculpture, aeration, or a bunch of other things that are nice to have but not really necessary. You can do BIAB for a while or get a cooler. You can make it as simple or complicated as you want.

 

[planetscott]

Do you wear pants?

Then itis time for all grain. If you already have the 10 gallon kettle, all you need is a mashtun and a cooler will do that for you at a low price.

Don't worry about yeast starters until you want to make higher gravity beers. I use hydrated dry yeast for most of my batches. Yous should too.

 

[brewshki]

Fly or batch sparge? I think I have decided I want to do the cooler method. My question now is if I need the HLT to fly sparge or now

 

[brewshki]

I also have no issue spending a little money, but I just wanted to remove the train of thought of the sculptures. The couple hundred of the coolers is waaaaay different than the sculptures. I also already have a huge mesh bag so I could theoretically BIAB tomorrow if I wanted

 

[planetscott]

Fly or batch sparge? I think I have decided I want to do the cooler method. My question now is if I need the HLT to fly sparge or now

Batch sparge is easier, however fly sparge is not that difficult if you are creative.

This is how I fly sparge:

https://youtu.be/CUbmCBN5mE0

I since upgraded the foil to a aluminum roasting pan with holes in it to prevent channeling.

 

[Gerry_P]

Fly or batch sparge? I think I have decided I want to do the cooler method. My question now is if I need the HLT to fly sparge or now

I use the method discussed in this thread. I did it myself kinda by accident first, then I found the thread later. Super easy. (Btw I put a collander in the cooler opening, which acts as a diffuser.) I've gotten from 73 to 80% efficiency using this.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=75454

 

[jrcrilly]

It's a hobby. You should do whatever you enjoy. I brew mostly all-grain but sometimes I don't feel like setting it all up and spending the time so I do a partial extract or minimash batch. I picked up a BIAB bag recently becaue I want to experience all the brewing methods. It's all good. There's a little friendly (I hope) banter online by folks who think that what they enjoy is the only right answer - but it's not that simple.

 

[jamina1]

When do I make that jump to all grain?

I started with all-grain, albeit with 1-gallon batches.

For me, the limitation for doing a larger all-grain batch was the equipment. I don't have a burner to boil 5 gallons of wort, I don't have a method to cool 5 gallons of wort.

As an experienced 5-gallon brewer, you probably do! The only difference is the mash.

I've brewed with friends who had a cooler mashtun and an extra Hot liquor tank for sparging and all that stuff. For my all grain batches I just use a bag. I'm sure that's not "sophisticated" to some people, but the end result is that you end up with beer!

Figure out what technique you want to go with and just do it No time like the present!

 

[xben]

I started AG from day #1.. I did not want to waste my time playing with extract. My first batch was not so bad, 2nd OK, 3rd close to "good" and now (15th batch), I'm satisfied with the results.

My friends are impressed of how my brews are amazing now! I read on AG process for ~6 month before starting the hobby, and I learned a lot of things from my first brews (still learning though).

So, go ahead, don't be scared of making mistakes, this is the best way to get experience!

cheers!

 

[fosaisu]

I've brewed with friends who had a cooler mashtun and an extra Hot liquor tank for sparging and all that stuff. For my all grain batches I just use a bag. I'm sure that's not "sophisticated" to some people, but the end result is that you end up with beer!

I don't think anyone's "bagging" on BIAB, OP just said he didn't want to do it so most have been giving him advice on buying a more "traditional" (but still economical) all grain setup!

 

[DocDriza]

I was doing extract brewing for a year before i made the switch to AG. Honestly there is no NEED to move to AG if you don't want to. Personally I think its a little more fun to do AG, because there is more control with grains when creating a recipe. As a couple of people have said, there really isn't a right or wrong time to move to AG. As soon as you can afford the equipment buy it and get started with SMaSH brewing so you get used to the process.

 

[Brew_G]

You know what, folks? Brewing isn't a pissing contest. If someone wants to brew all-extract, then that's their choice as a homebrewer, and that's the right choice for them. Partial mash, BIAB, three-vessel system, gravity or pump-driven...it doesn't matter, so please stop whipping your d***s out and trying to prove you're the biggest.

OP - feel free to do what you want, and don't feel pressured into doing something you're not ready, or to go with a process you really don't want to follow. It's your choice, so take the advice for what it is!

 

[Gerry_P]

so please stop whipping your d***s out and trying to prove you're the biggest....etc.

Dude said he wanted AG advice, plenty of advice and encouragement was given, nothing more complicated than a cooler mash tun or BIAB was recommended, not one single picture of a multi-thousand dollar HERMS system was posted. Where exactly were penises displayed? Maybe I missed something.

 

[fosaisu]

Fly or batch sparge? I think I have decided I want to do the cooler method. My question now is if I need the HLT to fly sparge or now

I've only ever batch sparged. I think most everyone would agree that it's somewhat less complicated than fly sparging and requires somewhat less equipment, and most would argue that batch sparging is faster than fly sparging. I did a fair amount of research before taking the plunge into all grain and found no definitive evidence that fly sparging is superior in other respects (Denny Conn's post on batch sparging ultimately sold me on it). That said, there are dozens of debate threads on the topic (some say better efficiency with fly sparging, some say fly sparging makes sense at commercial scale but no difference at homebrew scale).

If you're looking for a cheap and easy all grain setup to start with (and remain disinterested in BIAB) then I'd definitely recommend starting with batch sparging. If you get a round Rubbermaid drink cooler (instead of one of the cheaper square coolers) you'll be OK if you decide down the road to give fly sparging a shot (as I understand it, a deeper grain bed is desirable for fly sparging so a tall/narrow coolers work better than short/wide ones). I bought a 10 gallon drink cooler when I started all grain for this very reason. I'm happy enough with batch sparging that I now wish I'd saved the money and just converted a square cooler off of craigslist. But if spending an extra $30-40 is worth it to you to preserve the option of easily switching to fly sparging down the road, go for it!

To answer your question about the hot liquor tank (i.e. do you need another big pot besides your brew kettle to do mash tun brewing): it's possible to get away without one. Someone above mentioned using a bunch of smaller pots (which seems like a PITA to monitor temps, but otherwise no different than one large HLT). The other method I've read about involves draining the first runnings from the mash tun into a plastic fermenting bucket and using it to hold the hot wort while you heat sparge water in your brew kettle. Your comfort with this depends on how comfortable you are with heating plastics. I don't know that plastic fermenting buckets are rated food safe at 140-160 degrees (likely temp of first runnings you'd be draining into the fermenting bucket), I suspect not but you could research that. Or spend $21 for a cheap aluminum tamale pot from Walmart and use that as your hot liquor tank. Tl;dr: At some point you're going to need another vessel besides your brew kettle, either to hold the first runnings while you heat sparge water in your brew kettle, or to heat the sparge water in because your brew kettle is already full of first runnings.

 

[brewshki]

Did not mean to get a lot of people all riled up. I will at some point do some BIAB batches. The bag was a cheap investment and my kettle is big enough. My curiosity as a home brewer will drive me to it. I tailored my questions more towards other systems because I have watched lots of videos about it and it looks like a ton of fun and it would let me get deeper into the process. I have no opinions about which is better or worse. I really appreciate all the words that have been written about the various methods. I'm very excited to get a cooler now. The only thing left is to decide if I need an HLT haha. I'm very excited to take the plunge.

 

[Owly055]

I first brewed in 1969 using extract....... the only thing available then. After a few batches the limited supplies available resulted in my abanding brewing for many years. A year and a half ago, I begain brewing again, and went straight to all grain. I use BIAB because it requires almost no equipment, and produces a product that is in no way inferior. Items needed are a brew kettle and a bag... and of course a way to monitor temp. I insulate my brew kettle with egg crate foam after reaching the desired temp. I brewed all grain batch number 95 Saturday.

Biab is not cool.......... but it's simple and cheap, and a good starting place. I originally intended to build a mash tun, but decided I didn't want 3 large tuns to deal with. I brew in the kitchen on the stove doing 2.5 and 3 gallon brews (mostly 3 gallon). More important than the brewing system is having a grain mill, and good accurate scales and thermometers.

I've gravitated to a hybrid system....... I mash in the same kettle I used for BIAB, but without the bag, and since I have another kettle, I just pour my mash into that kettle using a brew bag for a filter........ That brings me up to a two vessel system........ I hose out the first kettle and use it to dunk sparge .... adding another level of complexity. I have my water heater cranked up to "oh wow", so I don't need an HLT.
I'm debating going to a mash tun with a false bottom for a couple of reasons, and I'm also looking at building a reverse circulation mashing system that will start while I'm asleep. I'll probably go with the latter. In my future is an automated brew system using the water heater for an HLT so I can sparge.

The point of all this is that starting simple and cheap, lets you decide which way to go. There are a number of reasons I decided not to go with the cooler mash tun, probably the most important is the "stuck sparge". I use a lot of wheat and rye..... You can squeeze a bag....... You can't squeeze a mash tun. For this reason, I probably will always have brew bags on hand...... if worse comes to worst, I can always dump the grain tube out into the brew bag and squeeze...........


H.W.

 

[Gerry_P]

Did not mean to get a lot of people all riled up.

Nah man, you didn't rile anyone up. Except maybe the guy talking about d**cks and stuff.

 

[normonster]

Threw a Gerrybomb in herezzzz....lol. I'd recommend extract, then BIAB then three vessel. If you plan it right the first things you buy remain part of your system for a long time.

Cheers!

 

[actech]

God I wish I lived where the tap water didn't taste like dirt,smell like dirt. Leaves me buying jugs of water to make extract batches. Just can't imagine how long it would take to r/o mash, sparge water. Go for it op, I wish I could.

 

[ChefRex]

Nah man, you didn't rile anyone up. Except maybe the guy talking about d**cks and stuff.

This^^^^ ask questions, get answers, have fun, deal with a few DICKS