When to chill for best hop aroma and flavor

[NewDecadeBrewery]

My next brew is going to be an APA and as far as hop flavor and aroma I am going for something like Firestone Pale 31 as a benchmark to shoot for. As far as a recipe I am going to basically mimic ones found on this forum for this beer and I haven't finalized things yet. Bottom line with this beer is I want great hop flavor and aroma.

I am a little confused as to the technique at flameout as I am including 0.5 to up to 1.5 oz hops at that time for a five gallon batch. I have heard that steeping flameout additions for 15 or more minutes will give the best aroma and flavor, but I just consulted my "Brewing Classic Styles" and in the section on English IPA the author (is it Zainasheff or Palmer?) states that, "it is important to chill the wort rapidly after the last hop addition in order to trap the late hop character." In my book this is on page 182. FYI I do plan on dry hopping this beer so I expect good flavor and aroma from that.

So which is it - chill rapidly at flameout or let them steep awhile for best hop character? Disclaimer - I haven't listened to the CYBI episode on this beer.

What do any of you do that get great aroma and flavor out of your late hopping additions?

 

[Bamsdealer]

I would throw them in at flameout and chill as fast as possible after 1-2 minutes if that's the recipe or intended result you're aiming for. If you want a different flavor/aroma profile, 15, 10 or 5 minute additions will do the trick.

 

[badbrew]

I don't see how you can avoid additional bitterness by letting ~200 F wort hang out for a while. Somebody please tell me I'm wrong. :fro:

 

[NewDecadeBrewery]

The clone recipes I looked at don't specify how long to steep the hops. In fact none of the recipes in "Brewing Classic Styles" do. I am also developing my own recipe based off of what I have read about cloning that recipe. I guess that more than just cloning a specific recipe I am interested in finding out what gives the best aroma and flavor for flameout additions as I find conflicting information on this matter.

 

[NewDecadeBrewery]

I don't see how you can avoid additional bitterness by letting ~200 F wort hang out for a while.

I agree with this as well. So does immediate chilling at flameout with simultaneous hop additions give the best aroma and flavor vs steeping for some amount of time? Not necessarily looking for additional bitterness with flameout additions.

 

[pickles]

A fellow brewer and I have been working on getting the best hop aroma and have performed many experiments. If making a hugely hoppy beer then I think hopbursting is the best way to achieve that. We also have come to the conclusion that the flameout additions (0 min) are best added when wort is below 200F; we actually cool quickly to 195F and hold at 195F for 20-30 min with no agitation; then quickly cool to pitching temp. The flavor and aroma is pretty intense. Each addition will lend some bitterness, but it's less and less as temperature drops (google hopbursting). Flameout hops steeping for 30 min will not instill any perceivable bitterness. Obviously this is a bit more info than you were looking for; but the answer is both. Steep in 190-200F wort for up to 30 min and the cool quickly.

 

[Hammy71]

I start my whirlpool 15 minutes before flame out. At flame out I add the 0 minute hops and let whirlpool for around 15 minutes or when the beer gets down to 200F, which ever comes first. Then chill. I've noticed a obvious increase in hop aroma and taste with this method. If I let the beer get too far below 200F before I start chilling, I've noticed an increase in chill haze. So for me, that's the sweet spot. A lot of trial and error to find out what works for my system. I've noticed no detectable increase in bitterness (after so many IPAs...my taste buds are probably shot anyway), when I've done side by side tests. I remember listening to the "Can You Brew It" episode about the Firewalker clone. And the brewery said they whirl pooled for 20 minutes to get the most of the 0 addition hops. Kinda what got me experimenting.

 

[duckmanco]

I agree with this as well. So does immediate chilling at flameout with simultaneous hop additions give the best aroma and flavor vs steeping for some amount of time? Not necessarily looking for additional bitterness with flameout additions.

You can have it both ways here IME. After some listening to various BN podcast with brewers like Matt Bryndilson at FW talk about whirpool rests using flameout hops, I tried it on a few hoppy ales. The results were far far superior to any amount of hops tossed in at flameout and then cooled immediately.

From what I gathered from the podcasts, the BN crew generally sticks to a 30 minute rest of the whirpool hops, and figures that addition as contributing what a 20 minute addition would for IBU. While its not perfect, to my tastes it seems to be about right. So, if you want to toss in 3 oz of flameout hops--go for it. Just calculate that as a 20 min. addition in your software (for a 30 minute rest) and then scale back your bittering charges to add up to the recipe IBU total.

I can just about guarantee you'll find it a better use of late hops and your beers will taste and unbelievably hoppy, and the bitterness will remain in line. Couple this idea with Basic Brewing Radio's podcast about only being able to hit 50ish IBU with any size/amount of bittering hope at 60 min, and you can really see why late hops for hoppy beers are the way to go.

 

[pickles]

Couple this idea with Basic Brewing Radio's podcast about only being able to hit 50ish IBU with any size/amount of bittering hope at 60 min, and you can really see why late hops for hoppy beers are the way to go.

I'd love to hear more about this.

Hammy - I haven't experienced any chill haze. Do you cold crash and/or keg?

 

[ksbrain]

two words: dry hops

 

[NewDecadeBrewery]

Thanks for all the responses, especially the info about caculating flameouts as a 20 min addition as per ibu's, the potential (or not) for chill haze, and the 200 degree sweet spot.

I can see I have some experimenting to do. On the fence about bursting, steeping, AND dry hopping for a Pale Ale. IPA I would probably do it. Even bursting and steeping might be too much, no? Probably depends upon how much hops are added and when.

Read some posts about hop bursting and it led me to the Amarillo Pale Ale post on Homebrewtalk. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f66/amarillo-pale-ale-49822/

Maybe I'll just try the Amarillo Pale Ale without the steep as that recipe doesn't mention to do it. I have Cascades, Centennial, Amarillo, and Citra on hand, so I will probably come up with some combination of those hops.

No matter what I do I am still curious as to the Palmer/Zainasheff claim of "best hop character" with immediate chilling of flameout additions. How many newer brewers will read something like that and just take it as undisputed fact? The source is credible enough. Oh well the fact that there's no absolute answers definitely makes the hobby more interesting and challenging. I'm not claiming anyone is right or wrong here. I just want to make good beer.

 

[Hammy71]

I'd love to hear more about this.

Hammy - I haven't experienced any chill haze. Do you cold crash and/or keg?

Keg. Usually my beers are crystal clear by the time I get around to drinking them. But, the couple I let get below 200F in the whirlpool....poured purdy, but clouded up by the time I got the glass upstairs. Still tasted great, but was hazy. I've since stuck to the 200F rule and I've had no issues. Like it's been said...every system is different.

 

[NewDecadeBrewery]

Just wanted to post a follow up. I brewed this beer mimicking FW pale grain bill 80% two row 15% Munich 5% carapils and a touch of pale chocolate for color. Overshot my efficiency a little for 1060 on the OG . Hop additions were about 5 IBU's fuggles at 60, 10 IBU's Chinook at 30 and Cascade/Centennial at f/o which were steeped at 205 degrees for 20 minutes which was down to 195 before the rapid chill. Calculated IBU's were 38 calculating the f/o as twenty minute additions. This technique I also tried to mimic from the CYBI episode with Matt Bryndilson from F/W. I dry hopped at day three of the 63 degree f ferment when the gravity was around 1018 and left the dry hops in for 6 days. Fg was 1009 which was more attenuation than I anticipated with WLP013. The dry hops were whole flower Cascade and Willamette 0.75 oz. apiece.

What I will do different next time: maybe add more f/o hops. 1 oz of Cascade and 0.5 oz of Centennial didn't do it. Neither did the 1.5 oz of dry hops. Next time I will weight the hops down as I used a mesh bag and the bag was still floating after 6 days. The hops were saturated but floating. Willamette may not have been optimum either for what I was looking for but I wanted to DH with whole cone hops not pellets for my system.

Taste of this beer: the malt profile is lovely. The bittering is soft and quite complimentary. There is nice hop aroma and flavor. It definitely is a Pale Ale flavor wise and wouldn't be mistaken for another style.

How does it compare? To F/w Pale31 not even close hop wise. Sierra Nevada PA - close but prob not even as much aroma/flavor as that beer, but close.

Conclusion - really need to step up the process when it comes to flavor/aroma additions.

Hope this info adds to the discussion. Cheers!

 

[BrewThruYou]

I think many people took Jamil's word as gospel when he said that you need to chill as quickly as possible after the boil for best hop aroma/flavor. I think most people are coming around to the idea that flameout hops should be steeped or whirlpooled before chilling.

Personally, I'm just switching to the steeping at 195°...just did my first beer this way.

 

[NewDecadeBrewery]

@BrewThruYou how did your beer turn out? I am finding that merely steeping a given amount of hops may or may not do the trick. For the recipe mentioned above next time I may: 1. Increase the amount of hops steeped 2. Hop burst throughout the steep (really excited about this concept) and 3. Increase dry hop amount and/or contact by weighting the bag. I really buy into the concept of adding dry hops toward the end of fermentation to avoid oxidation and to allow the churning nature of the ferment increase the contact with or extraction from dry hops. I know the bag probably hinders contact but for now it's easier for me and my system.

 

[jkendal]

I think many people took Jamil's word as gospel when he said that you need to chill as quickly as possible after the boil for best hop aroma/flavor. I think most people are coming around to the idea that flameout hops should be steeped or whirlpooled before chilling.

Personally, I'm just switching to the steeping at 195°...just did my first beer this way.

+1 on flameout hops should be steeped before chilling. Try twice as much flameout hops next time.

 

[malkore]

Read this month's BYO magazine. They address hop-bursting and the 'fuzzy math' that surrounds adding hops after flameout during the whirlpool, and what you can expect. Jamil was even consulted for the answer (its in the mr. wizard letters)

A lot of these techniques are new in the 'public arena' (vs. being trade-secrets of commercial breweries) and thus aren't in Jamil's book (until he does a revision).

 

[duboman]

I don't see how you can avoid additional bitterness by letting ~200 F wort hang out for a while. Somebody please tell me I'm wrong. :fro:

Bitterness comes from the boil and utilization of the hops from the boil, adding at flame out releases the aroma and flavor compounds only so there is no utilization factor thus no bitterness added, all you are doing is essentially steeping the hops at this point.

 

[NewDecadeBrewery]

Bitterness comes from the boil and utilization of the hops from the boil, adding at flame out releases the aroma and flavor compounds only so there is no utilization factor thus no bitterness added, all you are doing is essentially steeping the hops at this point.

From all I have read and heard it seems that this may not be true. Jamil talks about unintentionally getting 70 IBU's due to too long of a steep in one of his commercial beers that was evaluated by a lab for IBU's. This is in the new issue of BYO and I believe part of the Sharkbite Red episode of Can You Brew It . Matt Bryndilson from Firestone Walker talks about adding hops in the whirlpool for 20 min and getting 25 IBU's for the Mission Street Pale Ale in The Brewing Network show from 06/07/2010 regarding the Pale 31 and Double Barrel ales, and on the same Brewing Network show about the Sharkbite Red clone the brewer from Pizza Port Carlsbad talks about IBU'S gained in the whirlpool and calculating whirlpool hops as a 20 minute flavoring/bittering charge.

 

[Piratwolf]

What NewDecade said! My impression is that the CYBI crew seem to calculate whirlpool bittering as an addition equal to about 1/2 as long as the whirlpool. So 30 minute whirlpool might be equal to a more traditional 15-minute addition.

That's just sort of an inference i've drawn between the "Weeeeeeell"s and "about"s and "roughly"s that seem to surround this question on the show. It's cool to find frontiers in brewing

 

[BrewThruYou]

@BrewThruYou how did your beer turn out?

I'm going to dryhop it tonight, but the first hydrometer sample was pretty damn good. It's a Union Jack clone attempt.

I am finding that merely steeping a given amount of hops may or may not do the trick. For the recipe mentioned above next time I may: 1. Increase the amount of hops steeped 2. Hop burst throughout the steep (really excited about this concept) and 3. Increase dry hop amount and/or contact by weighting the bag.

I'm definitely for increasing the amount of hops steeped and increasing dry hop amount. When I started making IPAs, I was one of the people that did 6oz everytime. 1oz at 60, 20, 15, 5, 0, chill ASAP and 1oz dryhop in secondary.

From the stuff I'm reading, I'm leaning towards 50 max IBUs at 60 minutes (for the big beers...obviously don't want that much on a smaller IPA) and then hopbursting with steeping/swirling at 190° to 200° (my equipment doesn't allow a true whirlpool). I'm not sure on how long yet for the steep. I tried about 15-20 minutes on the first attempt...we'll see how that works out.