What's your strike water/grain ratio?

[PoppinCaps]

Found a number of threads out there, but I thought I'd get your opinions on it.

I've got a 4 gallon mash tun (batch sparge with the stainless braid) that I've been doing 3 gallon AG brews with, and I'm curious how you other batch spargers keep your mash efficiency up. I typically run with around 1.1qt/lb grain for the mash (averages 1 gallon first runnings), and double batch sparge with around 1.3 gallons each, keeping the grain temp at 170F while sparging, mixing the hell out of it and resting for 5-10 minutes before the vorlauf. So far I'm getting mash efficiencies of 74-78% and brewhouse eff of 69-73%. As an example, the last runnings of my brew tonight was at 1.025 (temp corrected), so I sparged a third time with an extra gallon to make some starter, which came out to 1.024. All was not lost, but that's lame. It wasn't even high gravity, expected OG of 1.061. I only hit 1.055.

I know you batchers get higher efficiency, what's the secret?! Maybe an even thicker mash? Why can't I get that damn sugar to come out? Please don't say boil for 3 hours...

Thanks!

 

[Suthrncomfrt1884]

I get an average mash efficiency of about 82%, but I still concider anything over 75% to be pretty good at a homebrew level. It really comes down to crush, in my opinion. I use a 1.25qts/lb ratio on most beers. If I'm doing a higher gravity beer, I'll go as low as .75qts/lb. If you want to try to get better efficiency, you may want to try a 120-140-160 infusion mash before you start sparging. Obviously, those temps can be changed a little bit. I tend to leave out the protein rest of 122ish, but it'll help with certain grain bills.

My normal mash on an average gravity beer is 143F for 20 minutes, then 158F for 40 minutes. Then I bump it up to 170F for 10 minutes and begin my sparge.

 

[JuanMoore]

My mash thickness varies depending on the grainbill. I double batch sparge also and try to mash with a thickness that will get the run off volumes close to equal. IMO efficiency for batch spargers is mostly dependent on crush and how well the sparge additions are stirred in. I use a pretty fine crush and get 80-85% efficiency depending on the OG. Braukaiser has some great info about batch sparging on his site-

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparging_Analysis

 

[eastoak]

condition your grain and set the mill tighter. you'll get more flour, the husks will stay mostly intact and your efficiency should go up.

i'm not sure if a thicker mash would help, i don't think so. my last batch i mashed 10lbs of grain in 8 gallons of water, no sparge, and i got the beer i was after out of it. i think the crush and the sparge are the key.

 

[PoppinCaps]

Thanks guys, great tips. I'm still using the LHBS grain mill, so conditioning will be a future improvement when the wife allows an in-house mill. Have to stop spending on other parts of the system. Otherwise, it looks like I'm pretty close to optimal on the batch sparging analysis. Maybe I'll wet the grains and crush when they're not looking....ha

 

[PoppinCaps]

I get an average mash efficiency of about 82%, but I still concider anything over 75% to be pretty good at a homebrew level. It really comes down to crush, in my opinion. I use a 1.25qts/lb ratio on most beers. If I'm doing a higher gravity beer, I'll go as low as .75qts/lb. If you want to try to get better efficiency, you may want to try a 120-140-160 infusion mash before you start sparging. Obviously, those temps can be changed a little bit. I tend to leave out the protein rest of 122ish, but it'll help with certain grain bills.

My normal mash on an average gravity beer is 143F for 20 minutes, then 158F for 40 minutes. Then I bump it up to 170F for 10 minutes and begin my sparge.

I'll definitely try this next round. Never thought I needed to do a 2-step, but hey, whatever works!

 

[Suthrncomfrt1884]

I'll definitely try this next round. Never thought I needed to do a 2-step, but hey, whatever works!

A two step just allows you to get at a few more of those sugars that you can't access through one temp step. Doing a single temp of 152-154 can get you close, but a two-step is better. If you're using a lot of pilsner malt or english/german malts, then you may want to throw in the protein rest, but it's not a "must do".

 

[eastoak]

Thanks guys, great tips. I'm still using the LHBS grain mill, so conditioning will be a future improvement when the wife allows an in-house mill. Have to stop spending on other parts of the system. Otherwise, it looks like I'm pretty close to optimal on the batch sparging analysis. Maybe I'll wet the grains and crush when they're not looking....ha

take a spray bottle with 4-5 oz of water ( it's what i use for 10-12 lbs of grain), carry your grains out to your car, spray right in the bag, go back in and tell them you want to grind them after all. or they might be know about malt conditioning and not take issue with it.

 

[CidahMastah]

I have read a thinner mash can actually help. I believe Denny batch sparges and shoot to do about 50/50 for mash/1 batch sparge.

I get about %76-78 typically using a corona mill, and a single batch sparge. I would say focus on your front end, not adding multiple sparges. While that will increase the efficiency it doesn't make a huge impact and diminishes value with each sparge. i.e. you may save only a couple bucks in grain costs per batch.

 

[eastoak]

I have read a thinner mash can actually help. I believe Denny batch sparges and shoot to do about 50/50 for mash/1 batch sparge.

I get about %76-78 typically using a corona mill, and a single batch sparge. I would say focus on your front end, not adding multiple sparges. While that will increase the efficiency it doesn't make a huge impact and diminishes value with each sparge. i.e. you may save only a couple bucks in grain costs per batch.

exactly. i'd rather get high quality wort out of my grain than save $2.

 

[DrJerryrigger]

I can pull high numbers but I do it with many batch sparges. I never do less than 3. And also do a extra for yeast starters after.

If your looking to improve your numbers (without changing your mill) I'd say mash as you have been, and mash out. On you sparge add enough water to cover the grain. I don't go by a volume as much as what looks right. I then just repeat the process until I have the right amount.

Also make sure you get as much of the water out as possible between sparges. Tip the cooler, and let it drip for ten min. Some times I'll even press the grain down from the top to squeeze out a little more. This is more important for the first batch than the later ones.

 

[CidahMastah]

I know I will never convert an avid multi batch sparger but... that is a heck of a lot of time and effort and time spent for a few points of gravity. I remember seeing a chart somewhere on HBT that showed that pretty much after 2 batch sparges the gravity return diminishes drastically - wish I could dig that up. If you get too crazy with your multi - sparging, you can leach tannins as well.

Main point is - you should be able to get around 75-80% efficiency by controlling your crush and doing 1 batch sparge; i.e. drain mash, add sparge water and drain to volume needed.

 

[Suthrncomfrt1884]

I can pull high numbers but I do it with many batch sparges. I never do less than 3. And also do a extra for yeast starters after.

If your looking to improve your numbers (without changing your mill) I'd say mash as you have been, and mash out. On you sparge add enough water to cover the grain. I don't go by a volume as much as what looks right. I then just repeat the process until I have the right amount.

Also make sure you get as much of the water out as possible between sparges. Tip the cooler, and let it drip for ten min. Some times I'll even press the grain down from the top to squeeze out a little more. This is more important for the first batch than the later ones.

Personally, I think there's a lot of things wrong with this type of procedure, but that's what homebrewing is all about. Everyone has their own way of doing things, and I tend to be a bit more cautious than most.

1. Draining your tun and letting it drip dry is putting the grains in contact with oxygen for a lot longer time than they should be. This is why professionals use fly sparging.

2. I bet you're extracting a lot more tannins than you should be whenever you press your grains. If you're this worried about yield, buy a little more malt...it's not that pricey.

Main point is - you should be able to get around 75-80% efficiency by controlling your crush and doing 1 batch sparge; i.e. drain mash, add sparge water and drain to volume needed.

+1

 

[asterix404]

I condition my grain and do a very tight grain crush. I use 1.25-1.5qt/lb of water depending on what gives me a nice round number of gallons. I generally do 1.5/lb when I do decoction mashing because I like having all that extra liquid around and going less I actually found that my grain is not soaked enough. The conditioning really works wonders for me.

I always do a batch sparge with the same amount of water as I strike with, so in the same 1.25-1.5qt/lb. I need to get better at sparging with getting the volume correct and not just draining it all the way. Also I have learned to always drain very slowly, draining 3G of wort can take up to 30min.

When I do a decoction a 10lb beer I generally hit about 95% efficiency. When I do a single infusion at 10lb I typically hit about 90%. When I do both at 14lb I hit about 90% and 85% respectively.

 

[JuanMoore]

If your looking to improve your numbers (without changing your mill) I'd say mash as you have been, and mash out.

Assuming full conversion, a mash out has zero effect on efficiency for batch sparging. It's important for fly sparging where the higher temps aid in getting the sugars into solution, but batch sparging uses the stirring to get the sugars into solution which happens just as readily at lower temps. IMO an infusion mash-out for batch sparging is a waste of valuable sparge water.

I know I will never convert an avid multi batch sparger but... that is a heck of a lot of time and effort and time spent for a few points of gravity. I remember seeing a chart somewhere on HBT that showed that pretty much after 2 batch sparges the gravity return diminishes drastically - wish I could dig that up.

It's in the link I posted above. Splitting the sparge in two typically gains ~5%, but beyond that the gains are minimal.

 

[PoppinCaps]

Great points, thanks for all the input. Does conditioning the grains give you a better crush at the same mill gap, or does it simply allow you to dial in a finer crush without destroying the husks?

 

[Jklinden]

The latter

 

[PoppinCaps]

Thought I'd give an update, in case anyone else reads this. I moved from my small batch system back up to my fly sparging HERMS, and now I'm at 82% mash, 80% brewhouse efficiency, using the same grain mill without conditioning, same grain/water ratio. I'm happy again, but I will definitely try conditioning the malt next time to squeeze out a few more points.