What's with the forum police here?

[Sir Humpsalot]

This thread sucks. Can we get a mod to delete it? I'm warning ALL OF YOU to knock it off and stop posting lame threads. Thank you.

Now, seriously, here's the deal. We don't like noobs and noobs don't like us. But if we work together, we can banish Mr. Beer from the face of the Earth.

We have a goal to accomplish. The only question now is whether we can work together to accomplish it.... Oh, and the other question is why am I posting this while sober?

 

[TheJadedDog]

I try to answer the question and then suggest searching to get more info.

I do think some of the newer brewers fail to recognize that they are not the first person with the question and that the question has been answered multiple times (sometimes within the same day). However, I also remember being a noob and feeling like my question had some particular nuance that made it unique (I know now that it didn't) and so I would post the question to get the personal response; so I can see it from both sides.

 

[brewt00l]

As one of the noobs who has been told to do a search, I have to say F you guys who do say that.

but telling them "F U" is ok?

just sayin...courtesy is a two way street.

 

[Evan!]

As one of the noobs who has been told to do a search, I have to say F you guys who do say that.

I can see a search bar at the top and use it, but the search function often throws away words when they are common. So if I put in three words commonly used together the search may return only one of those words and then list a ton of irrelevant information based on that one search word.

Besides, if everyone keeps using the search function, there won't be any more posts.

So, you're basically saying, "F*ck You!" to anyone who tells someone with a very frequently asked (and very frequently and repeatedly answered) question to search first?

That's not a very nice thing to say to people who really don't have to help you at all. I agree, responding to every question with "use the search or GTFO" is mean-spirited and unnecessary, but there ARE some questions that are SO common and SO incessantly posed that it's a bit insulting to many people when others are too lazy to search, and would rather just post the question again.

As for your frustrations with the search: how can all your words be common? Believe me, just because the search filters out "the" and "and", it doesn't make it any less effective.

Can you give us an example of something that the search failed to find?

 

[Orfy]

As one of the noobs who has been told to do a search, I have to say F you guys who do say that.

If you do retaliate with a "F you guys" then you are likely to get a mods attention in a bad way.

 

[Soulive]

Besides, if everyone keeps using the search function, there won't be any more posts.

Not true. If people take the time to search and read there won't be nearly as many redundant/time wasting posts. I have to say that I do like helping eager noobs like myself. The ones I don't help are the cocky or lazy ones...

 

[Bobby_M]

It would probably help if we all used thread subjects that were a bit more indicative of the content. I know the search hits the body and all, but once you get the results, it's a crap shoot when all the subjects say:

"I have a question"
"Help"
"Secondary"

How about:
"First time brewer, steeping grains question"
"How do I know when fermentation is complete"
"Which do you prefer, aluminum or stainless" (haha, I know...but at least you know to avoid the thread without even opening it).

I really try to use subjects that summarize the point of the thread, not just some words to occupy the required field.

 

[elkdog]

Can you give us an example of something that the search failed to find?

"Ale" and "Rye" come to mind as words the search doesn't like because they're too short. I'm still not sure if I can make a real nice rye ale from extract or if I need to go partial mash, but I'll probably wait a bit to ask, since I've got other beers to brew for now and don't need reasons to buy more gear.

As an aside, "F U to the people who told me to do a search" isn't really an improvement over their curtness. It's not a phrase that I've found helpful when asking folks for help.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

I said it before and I'll say it again....


Do you and your friends go around having the exact same conversation 8 times a day? Or are your conversations different every time you talk?

Would you still hang around with your friends if they all wanted to have the exact same conversation 8 times a day?

Well, when a newb starts a new thread with the same old question, that's pretty much what he is doing. He's asking this group on HBT, who've been here awhile, to engage in a repetitive conversation that we've more or less grown tired of having, and yet continue to have at least a couple of times each day. For this reason, sometimes, I fear it's the newb threads that will chase experienced members away... just something to think about (though to be honest, most experienced members are good at just ignoring those threads).

Now, sure there will be a few helpful souls who give a newb some insight or assistance. Maybe one of them will be a little drunk and bored and go into great detail just for your benefit. But I don't think you should expect people on HBT to do that for a newb. Especially not since we've already done it before. Countless times before.


There are more nuances to brewing than any new brewer can imagine. Believe me, there are posts beyond, "When to secondary". There are far more detailed things out there. And the sooner you start learning to find things for yourself, the sooner you will be able to understand the more nuanced posts that exist beyond "should I repitch my yeast?".

 

[cubbies]

I have never quite understood the infatuation with telling people to search. I mean what is the big deal? The energy you spent typing out use the search, could of been spent answering the persons question yet you don't come off as some internet chest thumper. I've been here a while, and yeah, questions get asked over and over again, but that is what the beginners forum is for. What is the point of a beginners forum, if people are going to get all hot and bothered by answering beginners questions; and moreover, why would you even open posts in the beginners forum, if you knew you were going to get so upset about it?

Me personally, the first forum I visit when I get here is the beginners forum because I enjoy helping people get their brewing off the ground. I have answered the same question(s) numerous times and have never once told a person to go use the search. Like someone, I think the OP, mentioned, the search can be quite cumbersome and searching through post after post in thread after thread is much more time consuming than simply asking the question.

Anyway, that is my $.02

 

[olllllo]

Pehaps this bears repeating.
I'm having this conversation over again.

The Beginners Beer Brewing Forum (a modest proposal):
1) Post if you can answer the question.
2) You can be funny or snarky if you do #1. If you cannot do #1 then do not post.
3) If you must recommend a search; post the link in the wiki that tells you how to do it or post your google result link. like this https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/ind..._google_search
or
http://www.google.com/search?q=CO2+s...mebrewtalk.com

If you cannot do #1 then do not post.

If the OP is not listening and being a dick then use the report a bad post button.

 

[DeathBrewer]

i find it's best to direct the n00b to where they can find their answer and suggest they use the search...perhaps give a good example of the search terms they should use.

it's far more helpful to teach someone how to find the information than to simply answer their single question. teach 'em how to fish!

We have new people here every day, though. there will ALWAYS be some n00b who wont use the search...oh well.

some days i feel like helping them out...sometimes i just answer the question...some days i just shake my head and close the window. but i never simply reply with "do a search" unless it involves "do a search for .... .... ...."

 

[Bobby_M]

The problem is really the fact that someone with a lot of brewing experience is not only the one best suited to answer, but also the least likely to repeat that answer 10 times or more. The noob in question will get much better answers by doing a search than taking the answers of the people most likely to respond. I'm not saying it's always the case, but it does make a good argument for LINKING to the threads for which the topic has already been covered.

There's a big difference between linking to the thread and just telling the OP to search. Maybe they did try searching and just don't know what words to use.

One thing I noticed about the forum, which is a great feature that no one really plans for, is that newer brewers learn some things and then feel that answering even NEWER brewers' questions is a way of paying it back. Maybe. Hmm, sometimes they talk out of their ass (myself included) but it's all in the effort of spreading the word.

 

[rdwj]

I have never quite understood the infatuation with telling people to search. I mean what is the big deal? The energy you spent typing out use the search, could of been spent answering the persons question yet you don't come off as some internet chest thumper. I've been here a while, and yeah, questions get asked over and over again, but that is what the beginners forum is for. What is the point of a beginners forum, if people are going to get all hot and bothered by answering beginners questions; and moreover, why would you even open posts in the beginners forum, if you knew you were going to get so upset about it?

Me personally, the first forum I visit when I get here is the beginners forum because I enjoy helping people get their brewing off the ground. I have answered the same question(s) numerous times and have never once told a person to go use the search. Like someone, I think the OP, mentioned, the search can be quite cumbersome and searching through post after post in thread after thread is much more time consuming than simply asking the question.

Anyway, that is my $.02

Exactly. To me, telling someone to search is like saying we don't really feel like helping you. Heck, sometimes I have a hard time finding posts with the search feature that I KNOW exist.

Nobody likes the noob treatment and I think we should make sure nobody has to go through that crap before they're "accepted" around here. Just answer nicely or don't reply - simple.

 

[Orfy]

It would probably help if we all used thread subjects that were a bit more indicative of the content. I know the search hits the body and all, but once you get the results, it's a crap shoot when all the subjects say:

"I have a question"
"Help"
"Secondary"

How about:
"First time brewer, steeping grains question"
"How do I know when fermentation is complete"
"Which do you prefer, aluminum or stainless" (haha, I know...but at least you know to avoid the thread without even opening it).

I really try to use subjects that summarize the point of the thread, not just some words to occupy the required field.

Mods can edit post titles.
If I find a totle that is none descriptive of the contents I will change it. I know some of the other mods also do this.

 

[cubbies]

Mods can edit post titles.
If I find a totle that is none descriptive of the contents I will change it. I know some of the other mods also do this.

That is a pretty good idea I think. That way when someone does search, it could become less cumbersome. Kind of sucks for the mods though. I am sure you guys have nothing better to do with your day than change post titles

 

[bradsul]

...There's a big difference between linking to the thread and just telling the OP to search. Maybe they did try searching and just don't know what words to use...

This is why when I recommend a search, I try to be more descriptive about what they can to to get the results they want rather than just 'use the search'.

An example is a few days ago (or maybe it was today, it all blurs together) was someone asking about the difference between DME and LME. Certainly that gets covered a lot so I suggested he search for 'extract twang' and read the various posts titled with some variation of 'LME vs DME'. They didn't mention the word 'twang' - maybe they didn't know that's what we call it or even what that difference he was tasting is.

Not too much of a difference but it's more personalized and you don't come off sounding like a tool.

 

[Orfy]

It's amazing how noobs and others refuse to help themselves.
There are stickies/FAQs and wiki articles and some people decline to read them.

It sucks when the work is ignored when it is there for their benefit.

The majority of the time I will just ignore a thread where that happens but when there are 3 questions all asking when is the right time to move to secondary all in the same forum on the same page then it is worth pointing out where to find the relevant information.

Otherwise we should just delete the FAQs and stickies and let the beginners section sink in the same questions asked daily.

I agree just telling someone to search with out adding further information is just a waste of a post and does not help. Better to just ignore the thread.

 

[MikeInCtown]

For those who are looking at what I said re: the F you post, I am saying that here, where it is off topic, not in those forums above. I remember asking about clone brew recipes and some not so nice person said why would I want to taste anything like I could buy at the store cause they were crap.

Wow, that helped me out a whole lot.

I guess what gets me so pissed with the "do a search" folks is that they actually took the time to type something out that helped the OP very little. When you got nothing to type then skip the post, or just avoid the newb forum all together.

The other thing where do a search won't work for example is in the AG forum where there are not only countless numbers of coolers available, but the same cooler that someone posted about 2 weeks ago is not available in my area and the ones available in my area may not have been mentioned. No much new product it seems every few months, so even if it has been discussed ad nauseum, there may always be something new. -days run into weeks and weeks run into months and so on...

 

[kornkob]

There is a world of difference between:

use the search function

and

That question has been extensively discussed in a previous thread. If you search for *insert appropriate phrase* you'll find the answers you need.


Often 'searching' is pretty ineffective if you aren't well versed in the subject matter since you don't have enough knowledge to be able to narrow the focus of your search.

Besides, even with subjects that HAVE been rehashed to death, sometimes new information or perspectives come into play. For instance, i seem to recall a relatively recent thread in which someone talked about how hospitals use a solution of bleach to destroy infections in the OR. It was a fairly detailed description of the solution and its effects on various pathogens. That conversation would have been a non-starter if, for instance, HBT forums had a policy of killing off any thread that was a repeat of a previous thread. After all the 'bleach as a sanitizer' conversation is as dead a horse as they come.

 

[Evan!]

Sometimes, asking a frequently asked question is warranted---as in the case of there being ten thousand threads on that same issue, and none of them pertaining to your particular variation.

But all too often, people post threads that could have obviously been averted had the OP searched. It's a matter of respect: respect for the forum and its members. Sure, you can just say "who care, if you don't like it, just ignore it". But when the forum gets absolutely inundated and cluttered with these common question, it starts to hurt the overall quality of the forum. Just because you can post a new thread doesn't always mean you should.

 

[the_bird]

Just because you can post a new thread doesn't always mean you should.

You know, for as much of a post-whore as I am, I reply in an existing thread about three hundred times for every new thread I start.

I did do the whole "do a search" quick-reply with someone recently, but it was a question about what grain mill to buy, and there's usually at least one or two active threads on that very topic at any given time. Had the person at least perused through the first page or two of the "Equipment" forum, they likely would have found an existing thread that might have either answered their question or at least been a better starting point for their questions than ANOTHER brand-new thread.

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

I agree with kornkob and Orfy completely. Ignore the thread (unless of course there are 3 of the same thread on the same page) and don't make the person feel stupid, or realize there is new info that can be added to the subject.

IB4TL

 

[PseudoChef]

You know, for as much of a post-whore as I am, I reply in an existing thread about three hundred times for every new thread I start.

I did do the whole "do a search" quick-reply with someone recently, but it was a question about what grain mill to buy, and there's usually at least one or two active threads on that very topic at any given time. Had the person at least perused through the first page or two of the "Equipment" forum, they likely would have found an existing thread that might have either answered their question or at least been a better starting point for their questions than ANOTHER brand-new thread.

Why not just take the extra 10 seconds and give them the link to the thread instead? Then suggest next time they do a search.

 

[Beerthoven]

There are stickies/FAQs and wiki articles and some people decline to read them.

I think it is too much to expect of the average person to read and absorb all the information in the stickies/wiki before posting a common question.

Lets face it, the stickies may not be that helpful to a person with a specific question. Either the information is not obviously relevant to the question or is too general to be of any immediate use. And many (including me) don't have the patience to slog through the snarky/OT posts just hoping to find the one nugget of information that might be relevant.

Personally, I think we should have one, and only one, sticky FAQ in the Beginners Section with links to the Wiki - not to more threads. The Wiki is easier to read and people can browse around in it in a way that they can't on the forums.

All the same questions get asked again and again when the answers can be found by searching.

Maybe. But lets not forget two things.

First, HBT is a discussion forum, not an encyclopedia (but what is? The WIKI!). Its very nature encourages questions and inhibits research.

Second, many n00bs don't realize they are asking common questions because they are n00bs.

I think olllllo's suggestion for appropriately responding to beginners' questions is good. Answer if you can do it nicely, show them how to search and point them the to the Wiki. If you can't do that, then stay out of it.

 

[the_bird]

Why not just take the extra 10 seconds and give them the link to the thread instead? Then suggest next time they do a search.

The only reason I posted at all was to tell them not to double-post - the search suggestion was secondary.

 

[SuperiorBrew]

There's a big difference between linking to the thread and just telling the OP to search. Maybe they did try searching and just don't know what words to use.

I agree, Post a few links and then if they (me included) dont get the hint after a few times them remind them to use the search and or explain what keywords you used in your search.

I did give the bird a little crap on this thread yesterday (thought he may have been a little short)
I dont know if thats what the OP is refering to though.

I myself try to always search first and even if I find somewhat of the answer but still have a few more questions I will start a new thread rather than reply to a real old one.

 

[the_bird]

I agree, Post a few links and then if they (me included) dont get the hint after a few times them remind them to use the search and or explain what keywords you used in your search.

I did give the bird a little crap on this thread yesterday (thought he may have been a little short)
I dont know if thats what the OP is refering to though.

I myself try to always search first and even if I find somewhat of the answer but still have a few more questions I will start a new thread rather than reply to a real old one.

Listen.

How many n00bs have I helped over the past year and a half?

Am I generally a pretty nice guy? Pretty useful, at least with the simple questions?

Give me a freakin' bogey on being a little short in one freakin' reply. I wouldn't have posted at all except I had to merge/clean up his duplicate threads.

 

[SuperiorBrew]

Listen.

How many n00bs have I helped over the past year and a half?

Am I generally a pretty nice guy? Pretty useful, at least with the simple questions?

Give me a freakin' bogey on being a little short in one freakin' reply. I wouldn't have posted at all except I had to merge/clean up his duplicate threads.

I know that why I noticed it yesterday and jokingly replied. It was out of character for you.

 

[BierMuncher]

pssssttttt

Hey you guys...

Whenever you get done arguing amongst yourselves???

There's a whole slew of n00bs out here wanting to know if their yeast is dead...if they should use bottled water...where they can secure a keggle...how can they up the alcohol...why their fermentation has stalled at 1.035 after 4 hours and of course my favorite...can I brew indoors? I'll take that one...

Now get out here and let's help some homebrew n00b-b00bs.

:rockin: