What's the most baking soda you ever added to a dark beer recipes mash?

[Silver_Is_Money]

And more specifically, what's the most baking soda or slaked lime (in grams) that you ever had to add to a really dark all grain beer recipe (such as a really robust Stout or Porter, etc..., chock full of loads of various high Lovibond roasted malts) in the mash to bring your mash into a "measured" pH range of 5.3 to 5.5?

Scale your answer as to the above to a nominal ~5.5 gallon recipe size please, so all answers are on the same relative page with respect to fermenter quantity.

It is vital that you report your mash waters (scaled) volume and its initial alkalinity and/or bicarb level, and your actual final measured mash pH (post your adding the baking soda or slaked lime) please.

Provide additional "scaled" details such as grist weight, recipe, types and quantities of added roasted malts/grains, etc... as you see fit.

Bonus (and highly related) question: What's the lowest pH you ever actually measured (not software calculated) within a dark recipes mash pre your addition of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) or slaked lime (calcium hydroxide)?

 

[ajdelange]

Don't have my logs available so I can't answer all the questions but the answer to the question in the title is "none" but then the only really dark beer I ever brew is dry Irish stout. It always comes in at about 5.5 pH in the mash tun. As I recall it uses about 10% roast barley. This is the one place where I use well water whose alkalinity runs from 1.5 - 2 mEq/L.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Don't have my logs available so I can't answer all the questions but the answer to the question in the title is "none" but then the only really dark beer I ever brew is dry Irish stout. It always comes in at about 5.5 pH in the mash tun. As I recall it uses about 10% roast barley. This is the one place where I use well water whose alkalinity runs from 1.5 - 2 mEq/L.

I quickly whipped up a computer simulation of a Dry Irish Stout recipe using 10% roast barley in 'MME' for a batch sized to a nominal 5.5 gallons in the fermenter, mashing the following grist (see image below) in 4 gallons of water with 50 ppm Ca++ , zero ppm Mg++, and 87.5 ppm of alkalinity (for 1.75 mEq/L), while using 5.74 as the pH for the Maris Otter base malt, and I tossed in sufficient Carafa III Special roasted malt to hit right close to 30L color, and it resulted in a mash pH prediction of 5.49 pH. Would this be close to your recipe, if yours was scaled to ~5.5 gallons?

 

[ajdelange]

Other than the Carfa, yes - it is, relying on memory, pretty close. Always came out about 60 SRM (again relying on memory).

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Thanks A.J.!

Now this thread needs to set its focus upon the original question. But to expand the potential for receiving more responses, I'll now open the floor to those who have added large quantities of either baking soda or slaked lime, but did not take a measured mash pH reading, yet made a beer that satisfied in the end.

And likewise, it would be interesting to hear from those who feel that at some level of addition, they feel confident that they can definitively attribute a batches failure to satisfy directly to its excessive receipt of baking soda or slaked lime.

Scaling to a nominal 5.5 gallons is still a must though.

 

[day_trippr]

Zero. Ever.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Zero. Ever.

In zero alkalinity mash water? What measured mash pH's do you typically see for robust Stouts? Even A.J.'s weaker and lower gravity stout discussed above had to be mashed in 1.5 to 2.0 mEq/L alkalinity water.

 

[Big Monk]

In zero alkalinity mash water? What measured mash pH's do you typically see for robust Stouts? Even A.J.'s weaker and lower gravity stout discussed above had to be mashed in 1.5 to 2.0 mEq/L alkalinity water.

I’ve never used Baking Soda for my RIS. I use higher DI pH base malts. Weyermann has been good for that over the last 3 years.

 

[day_trippr]

In zero alkalinity mash water?

Hmm? I start with pretty much zero, but I do build a profile that's appropriate for a big stout...

Cheers!

 

[Big Monk]

I find that many people just use WAY too much roasted malt.

 

[ajdelange]

Amen to that.

One feels, coming out of a stout judging session, as if he has been gnawing on charcoal briquettes all afternoon.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

See below my RIS, which (per 'MME') requires 7 gallons of ~2 mEq/L alkalinity mash water (or ~100 ppm of alkalinity, or ~4.34 g. baking soda if starting with distilled or good RO water) to mash at ~5.4 pH, but could also be mashed straight up at a pH of roughly 5.2. Would it be best to mash a recipe such as this one at close to pH 5.2 (and risk it potentially falling somewhat below that), or to elevate it to a mash pH in the range of 5.4 to 5.5 via the addition of the baking soda? (Not shown is 'MME's' whopping projection of ~7.13 g. baking soda required to hit 5.5 pH in the mash.)

RPIScotty, what is the DI_pH of the Wyermann base malt (I'm going to assume a Pilsner) you use in your RIS?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

But then again, I've also toyed with a RIS recipe that needed as much as ~8.4 g. of baking soda in the mash to bring it to 5.4 pH (and more than that, at around 11 g., to hit pH 5.5). I will presume that by this point the roasted malts and/or caramel malts are likely getting excessive. But no doubt someone out there has tried recipes demanding this level of baking soda (or alternatively, about 5.1 g. of slaked lime for 5.4 pH).

It is also possible to get the recipe seen in the picture above to much higher levels of baking soda by bumping the added minerals grams way up, as many would feel compelled to necessarily do.

 

[Beer666]

The most i have used is 0.2g per liter with RO water that should give an alkalinity of 120. Got the info from here. I really don't like adding baking soda to my beers though as at the back of my mind i think it makes the water taste horrible. I stick to pale beers mostly but if i do a stout i cold steep the dark grains.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The most i have used is 0.2g per liter with RO water that should give an alkalinity of 120. Got the info from here. I really don't like adding baking soda to my beers though as at the back of my mind i think it makes the water taste horrible. I stick to pale beers mostly but if i do a stout i cold steep the dark grains.

After baking soda has reacted with the malt acids present within the mash it is not longer present in its initial NaHCO3 state.

I've never tried adding 0.2 grams to 1 liter of RO water and then drinking it to judge its flavor impact. I add 1/2 tsp to a cup of water and drink it occasionally as an antacid. At 1/2 tsp (which I'm going to guess offhand to be at least 4 to 5 grams) in a cup it tastes fairly awful, but does it really taste awful even at 0.2 grams in a liter? Either way, the vast majority of it changes when acidified. Though technically, since it is a weak base and therefore does not fully dissociate, some very small quantity may remain as NaHCO3 within the final beer.

One can even go further and state (as I believe A.J. DeLange already has) that though textbooks claim that 0.2 grams/L will result in 120 ppm alkalinity, it actually results in a wee bit less in the real world due to its failure to fully dissociate into Na+ and HCO3- (if not also to some degree due to its typical purity level, and perhaps some present moisture content).

 

[ajdelange]

Baking soda dissolved in water does taste terrible as did the well water from a house I used to own which water was pretty alkaline (lots of bicarbonate). But it was pointed out to me that when water has been rendered into beer the pH has dropped from typically 7 - 9 to typically 4 - 4.8 such that most of the bicarbonate in it has been converted to CO2 and flown off. At this point there is more bicarbonate in a typical beer from the impressed carbon dioxide than from the water or additions to it.

 

[Beer666]

Ah now i get it, very well explained. Thank You.

 

[Big Monk]

See below my RIS, which (per 'MME') requires 7 gallons of ~2 mEq/L alkalinity mash water (or ~100 ppm of alkalinity, or ~4.34 g. baking soda if starting with distilled or good RO water) to mash at ~5.4 pH, but could also be mashed straight up at a pH of roughly 5.2. Would it be best to mash a recipe such as this one at close to pH 5.2 (and risk it potentially falling somewhat below that), or to elevate it to a mash pH in the range of 5.4 to 5.5 via the addition of the baking soda? (Not shown is 'MME's' whopping projection of ~7.13 g. baking soda required to hit 5.5 pH in the mash.)

RPIScotty, what is the DI_pH of the Wyermann base malt (I'm going to assume a Pilsner) you use in your RIS?

View attachment 579348

Well, if you take a look at the lot analysis sheets for the past 3 years or so for Weyermanns base malts (Pale Pilsner on up to Munich I) you’ll see they have been consistently greater than 5.80. The Barke Line, Extra Pale Pilsner, Regular Pilsner, Pale Ale, and Vienna we’re greater than 5.85 for almost 2 years, with the Barke Line and regular Pilsner peaking at around 5.90 for much of 2017.

 

[dmtaylor]

And more specifically, what's the most baking soda or slaked lime (in grams) that you ever had to add to a really dark all grain beer recipe (such as a really robust Stout or Porter, etc..., chock full of loads of various high Lovibond roasted malts) in the mash to bring your mash into a "measured" pH range of 5.3 to 5.5?

Bonus (and highly related) question: What's the lowest pH you ever actually measured (not software calculated) within a dark recipes mash pre your addition of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) or slaked lime (calcium hydroxide)?

I'm not going to provide specifics for every batch, but...

About a half teaspoon does the trick for me. I definitely haven't ever used more than a teaspoon. A little goes a long way.

Lowest mash pH I have seen is probably 4.9 or maybe 4.8. Don't think I've seen lower than about there.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Well, if you take a look at the lot analysis sheets for the past 3 years or so for Weyermanns base malts (Pale Pilsner on up to Munich I) you’ll see they have been consistently greater than 5.80. The Barke Line, Extra Pale Pilsner, Regular Pilsner, Pale Ale, and Vienna we’re greater than 5.85 for almost 2 years, with the Barke Line and regular Pilsner peaking at around 5.90 for much of 2017.

Excellent, thanks much!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I'm not going to provide specifics for every batch, but...

About a half teaspoon does the trick for me. I definitely haven't ever used more than a teaspoon. A little goes a long way.

Lowest mash pH I have seen is probably 4.9 or maybe 4.8. Don't think I've seen lower than about there.

Great info, many thanks dm! Info varies, but one tsp is probably about 4.5 to 5 grams.

 

[dmtaylor]

Great info, many thanks dm! Info varies, but one tsp is probably about 4.5 to 5 grams.

And probably too much in most cases in my experience. I use fractions of a teaspoon usually.

 

[Iseneye]

Never added.

It would be helpful if you stated in the original post that these data points are going to be used for your spreadsheet pH calculator. I was wondering why you wanted such details then saw your old thread on your spreadsheet.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Never added.

It would be helpful if you stated in the original post that these data points are going to be used for your spreadsheet pH calculator. I was wondering why you wanted such details then saw your old thread on your spreadsheet.

Yes, effectively this data is needed to monitor whether my latest revision has put my software on the right track with respect to the really dark and robust brews (up to and including those recipes which are overly robust with regard to their content of deep roasted malts, as is rather often found to be the case for homebrewers dark brew efforts, and as attested by RPIScotty and A.J. DeLange in posts seen above), without going past mere correction and entering into the territory of having gone overboard.

 

[homebrewer_99]

I've never used it...zero, nichts, nada, zilch.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

After mulling over some MSDS's for NaHCO3, its bulk density is on average 0.98 g./CC, so 1 level measuring teaspoon of baking soda is effectively 4.9 grams, provided that it can be agreed upon that one standard teaspoon = 5 mL.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I've never used it...zero, nichts, nada, zilch.

What is the alkalinity of your mash water when brewing a robust Stout? And what mash pH do you typically measure for a robust stout?

 

[homebrewer_99]

What is the alkalinity of your mash water when brewing a robust Stout? And what mash pH do you typically measure for a robust stout?

I can't say. I've never taken a pH reading either.

Not that it's important, we have good tasting water and I use only PUF filtered water for brewing.

 

[dmtaylor]

I can't say. I've never taken a pH reading either.

Not that it's important, we have good tasting water and I use only PUF filtered water for brewing.

If you're blessed with good water and good beer, keep on doing what you're doing. I'm headed your direction.

Cheers.

 

[homebrewer_99]

If you're blessed with good water and good beer, keep on doing what you're doing. I'm headed your direction.

Cheers.

You're headed my direction? As in process or geography?

 

[dmtaylor]

You're headed my direction? As in process or geography?

I fiddle much less with water and pH than I used to. Didn't see much benefit.

 

[homebrewer_99]

I fiddle much less with water and pH than I used to. Didn't see much benefit.

OK...

 

[ajdelange]

I fiddle much less with water and pH than I used to. Didn't see much benefit.

If you are fortunate enough to have water that comes out of the tap with low alkalinity and a blend of the stylistic ions that suits your taste vis-a-vis the styles you like to brew and your brewing practices are such that mash pH falls into the right band then there wouldn't be much benefit to tweaking your water. If, OTOH, you are like most your failure to appreciate the benefits would cut you off from the opportunity to dramatically improve your beers.

 

[sixhotdogneck]

I have never added alkalinity to brewing liquor. It would seem to me that ones recipe would be highly suspect and that the calcium salts should in that case be added to the boil.

 

[mabrungard]

I have never added alkalinity to brewing liquor. It would seem to me that ones recipe would be highly suspect and that the calcium salts should in that case be added to the boil.

Unfortunately, a brewer can't escape the pH lowering effect of calcium salts by reserving them for the boil. While it is helpful to avoid an overly low mashing pH since that tends to enhance fermentability of the wort and make the resulting beer thinner than intended, adding those salts to the kettle will cause the kettle wort pH to drop...maybe lower than you might prefer.

Mashing water alkalinity can be an asset in brewing some beer styles.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I have never added alkalinity to brewing liquor. It would seem to me that ones recipe would be highly suspect and that the calcium salts should in that case be added to the boil.

Highly suspect in what way? Are you thinking along the lines of excessively too much roasted malt in the recipe?

High Lovibond roasted malts in the color range of 600+ L can have DI_mash pH's ranging down to about 4.25 (give or take a bit). And I believe the acidity of such malts in the most extreme of cases may approach or even perhaps exceed 100 mEq's/Kg. (and certainly would if your intended mash pH target is 5.6 instead of 5.4). So even the addition of half a pound of such a malt introduces a load of acidity to a mash. And a search of recipes on a site such as Brewers Friend will reveal that many (scaled to 5.5 gallon) recipes call for single to multiple malts like this to be added in increments of whole pounds.

One lot of 630 Lovibond Briess malt was lab tested at a DI_mash pH of 4.24, and a 503L Chocolate malt tested at a DI_pH of 4.38. Oddly enough, unmalted dark roasted grains extending as deeply dark as 600L never seem to go much below ~4.55 DI_pH, and most malts in this class generally hover closer to 4.7, regardless of their Lovibond. So deep roasted malted barleys can be (but are not always, with this highly Lovibond dependent) much more acidic overall than is the case for deep roasted unmalted barleys.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Does not completely ignoring the presence of any quantity of mash water alkalinity (be it inherent, or added) fly in the face of a lengthy history of brewing which indicates that those regions with high alkalinity water often gravitated toward the production of darker brews? I'm amazed that so many contributors to this thread are openly touting their mash waters zero alkalinity as if it was somehow of benefit to them in the mashing of their very dark beer recipes. I'm also amazed that so few have admitted to having added alkalinity at any level, and that some of such admissions almost seem to come with an attached level of trepidation or self doubt as to having done fully the right thing. Clearly most home brewers seem to be far more comfortable with acidifying a mash than with alkalizing it. I wonder why.

 

[ajdelange]

It's probably because if one is careful in what he does, bases his practices on pH measurement rather than predictions of questionable spread sheets and calculators and uses reasonable amounts of high colored malts he finds that he seldom if ever needs to add alkalinity. I probably did it in my youth because I didn't understand all this and did what the 'experts' (the authors of the books and magazine articles) said to do. I'm now older (much older) and wiser (not so much wiser as older) and I haven't added alkalinity to any beer since the renaissance.

I think home brewers have gotten wise to the fact that stouts that leave your mouth tasting like the bottom of your Weber aren't that good. With RO water and enough gypsum or CaCl2 to get 50 ppm calcium a typical mash of 90% base malt and 10% roast barley is going to give you a mash pH around 5.5. Change that to 80%/20% and the mash pH drops to around 5.4. Now mash those same grists with water of 1.75 mEq/L alkalinity and the pH's rise by about 0.1 to 5.6 for 90/10 and 5.5 for 90/20. In the 90/10 case, which would be a miuch better beer to my way of thinking, one might be considering acid addition rather than alkali.

Now home brewers (and commercial brewers too) love to experiment and they do brew beers with incredible amounts of black and other high colored malts. They aren't very good beers but to make them less bad than they might be one should get the mash pH right and that will require alkali. It's always hard to draw conclusions from a handful of posts but I might think of interpreting the answers here by observing that this is the Brewing Science Forum and that, therefore, they may be better cognizance of the science of the mash tun and that the brewers here may tend to be more experienced than the brewers in other forums and that, therefore, you may have a group here who has tended to discover than alkali additions aren't needed that often in well balanced beers.

You should consider asking the question in some of the other fora.

 

[dmtaylor]

My Absolute Perfection Stout uses 25% dark specialty malts and my city tap water. It needs just a slight nudge to bring mash pH up into range and take the edge off the acidity. And it tastes, well, absolutely perfect and has medaled. I don't add baking soda or any other salts very often anymore, but I will add a tiny amount in a case like this. In this case used 1/8 teaspoon in 3 gallons. A little dab'll do ya.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

A.J., was I off base in my post #36 above? Are not some higher end Lovibond dark roast malts extremely acidic, and would not their use (as opposed to tamer roast barley) more likely necessitate the addition of additional alkalinity?

Some of these malts (if 1 lb. was to be mashed alone) would necessitate the addition of perhaps 2 to 4 g. of baking soda all by themselves to hit pH 5.4-5.5 in the mash. Of course the alkaline base malts are utilized to counter this, as is using less of such deep roasted malt(s), but if the goal is to use them and also to mash at a pH of 5.4 to 5.5 (the latter of which per Martin offers flavor and mouthfeel benefits for dark brews, for which I welcome him to confirm here), then baking soda or slaked lime additions would seem to be a necessity.