what would this recipe make?

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dichotomous

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5 gallons

12-14# dark LME

1.25# caramel 120
0.5# caramel 80
0.5# roasted barley
0.25# black patent
0.75# chocolate malt
3 oz Kent-Goldings (1oz-60min, 1oz-30min, 0.5oz-15min, 0.5oz-2min)

I am wanting it to be a caramelly imperial stout, am I way off?
 
It looks like you're getting into imperial stout territory to me. Idk know about caramely,but it's def gunna be roasty.
 
Not so much under-attenuated,but too many long chain,un-fermentable sugars. It's already gunna be dark. Just use enough of those to get the flavor qualities desired,imo.
 
I don't like much roasted barley or bp so it does not appeal to me, but I think I would run it through some software or compare it to Designing Great Beers to see how to tweak it to style.

B
 
Anybody else think the answer to the OP is "something undrinkable"?

Not trying to be harsh, just to get a sense of how over the top this looks to me. Dark extract already has some (unknown amount) caramel malt and possibly other grains. My suggestion would be to go with Light Extract and then add all the dark specialty grains. That way you're in control of the amounts rather than guessing at what Briess may have put in.

The other problem (at least at first glance) is that your hop additions won't stand up to the sweetness of the beer. I'm bulk aging an RIS that has similar amounts of dark specialty grains; it has 85 IBUs, which is probably more than 40 IBUs higher than your recipe. I know you're going for caramelly, but that seems cloying!

EDIT: Just ran this thru my software. Looking at over 11% ABV on the high end, but only ~30 IBUs....
 
Piratwolf said:
Anybody else think the answer to the OP is "something undrinkable"?
Click to expand...

i thought the same thing for the very reasons you posted, but was trying to be a bit subtle. it'll be sticky for sure, probably very sweet too with all that caramel and virtually no hop to speak of. when i brew with extracts, i like to stick to the light/gold/extra light variety and when using darker extracts, think of them as 'specialty' extracts and use them accordingly. like a light extract as the base and main fermentable, then maybe a touch of amber or dark extract for color, flavor and body. i've noticed a lot of kits with mainly dark extracts, but those seem to come with minimal specialty grains that seem to accentuate the specialty grains already in darker extracts. i spoke with the AHS vendor about the amounts of specialty grains in extracts and he even said there's no way of knowing the exact amounts in those darker extracts. (i.e., we know there's crystal malt in amber extract, what lovibond and how much is a different story)
 
Dichotomous~

I hope my post didn't come across as too harsh. I just love this hobby, hate it when I make mistakes, and wanted to keep you from going through that if I could help it. Keep brewing! :)
 
If you haven't brewed this yet and haven't bought all the ingredients yet, I'd suggest the following:

1) swap out all the dark LME for as light an LME as you can find (or DME, though adjust the amount accordingly - 1 lb of LME = ~0.8 lb DME)

2) use a high-alpha hop for your bittering addition to help get the IBUs up - though if this is a partial boil brew, you will have a hard time getting the IBUs up over 50

3) I would also actually consider upping the roasted grains a little if you go with the light extract

FWIW Jamil Zainasheff's RIS includes the following as steeping grains:
1.5 lb roasted barley
1.0 lb Special B (120L)
0.5 lb CaraMunich (60L)
0.5 lb Chocolate malt (350L)
0.5 lb Pale Chocolate malt (200L)
 
definately not scared off OR offended. precisely the answers I wanted. Havent bought anything yet, and this is the first recipe I have tweaked.
I definately want something high proof and very thick, mostly sweet (maybe 1.025 FG) with maybe around 40-50ibu. I was thinking the kent goldings wouldnt hold up, and that the 60min hops would better be a 12% or so
 
I'd go with the light LME. You's be suprised how much flavor and color the specialty grains will give you. That recipe will be verrry roasty.
 
at what FG does beer start to taste very sweet?
backing grains to
12oz caramel 120
8oz caramel 80
3oz black patent
3oz roasted barley
3oz chocolet malt

that showing with 12lbs LME is showing 12.3% abv for 4.0 gallons, with a FG of 1.029. is there a yeast that will go a bit drier than nottighams but not as dry as champagne?
 
also, I have heard of pitching onto an existing yeast cake. my local homebrew store owner strongly suggests against this, as she did it and it fermented too aggressively, leaving stains on her ceiling from the (her words) "mentos in coke style fountain".

could I leave part of the yeast cake there instead of pitching new yeast? this is a nut brown ale with nottighams yeast, and saturday will be ready for secondary.
 
dichotomous said:
at what FG does beer start to taste very sweet?
backing grains to
12oz caramel 120
8oz caramel 80
3oz black patent
3oz roasted barley
3oz chocolet malt

that showing with 12lbs LME is showing 12.3% abv for 4.0 gallons, with a FG of 1.029. is there a yeast that will go a bit drier than nottighams but not as dry as champagne?
Click to expand...

This is a tough question. High FG doesn't necessarily mean sweet - it depends on what types of sugars are in there. Most of the simple sugars that are sweet will be fermented out. What is left behind are those that are not fermentable, which tend to be not so sweet. Different yeasts attenuate differently mainly based on how well they handle the more complex sugars. Champagne yeast actually won't dry this beer out any more than a well attenuating ale yeast (like wlp001) since it can't deal with complex sugars very well (unlike a lager yeast, which can).

Beers with a high FG will tend to have more body since they contain more dissolved carb, though that can be tempered a bit by usually having more alcohol which thins things out. It is also this higher alcohol content that can give a beer some sweetness since there is a sweetness to some alcohols. Sweetness can also be perceived through the use of crystal malts which give a beer caramel flavors and we associate caramel with sweet.

As for your recipe - I assume you are still going with the dark extract here? If not your dark grains now seem like too little. I still recommend going with light extract and upping the grains. I am not familiar with Nottingham yeast, but there are plenty of high attenuating yeasts out there if this isn't getting you where you want. I would look into some of the liquid yeasts if you can.
 
JLem said:
This is a tough question. High FG doesn't necessarily mean sweet - it depends on what types of sugars are in there. Most of the simple sugars that are sweet will be fermented out. What is left behind are those that are not fermentable, which tend to be not so sweet. Different yeasts attenuate differently mainly based on how well they handle the more complex sugars. Champagne yeast actually won't dry this beer out any more than a well attenuating ale yeast (like wlp001) since it can't deal with complex sugars very well (unlike a lager yeast, which can).

Beers with a high FG will tend to have more body since they contain more dissolved carb, though that can be tempered a bit by usually having more alcohol which thins things out. It is also this higher alcohol content that can give a beer some sweetness since there is a sweetness to some alcohols. Sweetness can also be perceived through the use of crystal malts which give a beer caramel flavors and we associate caramel with sweet.

As for your recipe - I assume you are still going with the dark extract here? If not your dark grains now seem like too little. I still recommend going with light extract and upping the grains. I am not familiar with Nottingham yeast, but there are plenty of high attenuating yeasts out there if this isn't getting you where you want. I would look into some of the liquid yeasts if you can.
Click to expand...

partly I would prefer the dark extract with less grains, if its going to taste similar. reason for this is cost. Though if its gonna taste much better controlling the grains and going with a lighter extract, thats fine. I am also not opposed to using some table sugar to boost abv without adding end sweetness.
 
dichotomous said:
also, I have heard of pitching onto an existing yeast cake. my local homebrew store owner strongly suggests against this, as she did it and it fermented too aggressively, leaving stains on her ceiling from the (her words) "mentos in coke style fountain".

could I leave part of the yeast cake there instead of pitching new yeast? this is a nut brown ale with nottighams yeast, and saturday will be ready for secondary.
Click to expand...

I think Notty could be perfect for this given that you have a fresh cake to work with. Definitely don't pitch on to it. When you rack the nut brown off, leave enough liquid in there to swirl the yeast cake into semi-liquid state, then pour it into a sanitized container. (I use a growler.). Then clean & sanitize your fermenter, go to Mrmalty.com and look up how much slurry you need, and pitch that amount into your new (chilled) wort. I'd suggest a blow-off tube :)
 
Piratwolf said:
I think Notty could be perfect for this given that you have a fresh cake to work with. Definitely don't pitch on to it. When you rack the nut brown off, leave enough liquid in there to swirl the yeast cake into semi-liquid state, then pour it into a sanitized container. (I use a growler.). Then clean & sanitize your fermenter, go to Mrmalty.com and look up how much slurry you need, and pitch that amount into your new (chilled) wort. I'd suggest a blow-off tube :)
Click to expand...

perfect! I am forever indebted to you sir. I use most exclusively a blowoff tube. the airlock is for secondary
 
dichotomous said:
partly I would prefer the dark extract with less grains, if its going to taste similar. reason for this is cost. Though if its gonna taste much better controlling the grains and going with a lighter extract, thats fine. I am also not opposed to using some table sugar to boost abv without adding end sweetness.
Click to expand...

Not sure how the taste will compare. The dark extract may very well give you a great tasting beer, but with the light extract, you are in control of the flavor and you can tweak future recipes (for RIS or others that use roasted grains) based on what you learn about the flavor of this beer. If you use the dark extract you have no idea which flavors are coming from the extract and which from the grains.

I am a big fan of using ~10% simple sugars in higher gravity beers. I make a "big" beer every February and always add some kind of sugar to the recipe.
 
so I had to make some alterations

6lbs dark lme
6lbs xtra light lme
12oz crystal 90L
8oz crystal 60L
4oz roasted barley
4oz black patent
4oz chocolate malt

2oz magnum 12%AAU
1oz syrian goldings 3% AAU
1oz celia 2.8%AAU

will be adding 4lbs of table sugar into secondary to boost it later
 
ok, tonight I will add the sugar for secondary fermentation.
though, I will add a twist.

I wanted to try adding coffee, but didnt want to mess up the original recipe. so I will split the batch. there is roughly 4gal in there now, so 2 gal will go into the carboy with 1 gallon VERY strong brewed medium roast Green Mountain Coffee Roasters Vermont Blend, and 5.25cups of sugar(preblended and stored in sanitized growlers). and 2 gallons will transition to the bottling bucket while the main fermenter gets cleaned, then transfer back along with 0.5 gallon water with 5.25cups sugar.

big question: do I stir up the current fermented beer before transfering? to get all the yeast possible, and how long do I let it sit once stirred, to let the dead yeast and trub fall while keeping the live yeast suspended? fermentation appears to have stopped.
 
That's going to be a big ol' heavy beer. It looks a little over-roasted for my taste, but taste varies.
One thing for sure, this one will take some time. I wouldn't even think of drinking the first drop until the 3 month mark. I'd leave that in the carboy/s for at least a couple of months then bottle and cold condition for a good stretch.
 
dichotomous said:
ok, tonight I will add the sugar for secondary fermentation.
though, I will add a twist.

I wanted to try adding coffee, but didnt want to mess up the original recipe. so I will split the batch. there is roughly 4gal in there now, so 2 gal will go into the carboy with 1 gallon VERY strong brewed medium roast Green Mountain Coffee Roasters Vermont Blend, and 5.25cups of sugar(preblended and stored in sanitized growlers). and 2 gallons will transition to the bottling bucket while the main fermenter gets cleaned, then transfer back along with 0.5 gallon water with 5.25cups sugar.

big question: do I stir up the current fermented beer before transfering? to get all the yeast possible, and how long do I let it sit once stirred, to let the dead yeast and trub fall while keeping the live yeast suspended? fermentation appears to have stopped.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't stir. There will be plenty of yeast in there. I wonder about the amount of coffee though - first you've diluted your beer by a third, so all the beer flavor, bitterness, hops, and alcohol will be 1/3 less and second, it seems like a ton of coffee, especially if it is very strong brewed. I have little experience with coffee - tried it just once and I used fresh ground coffee in the secondary. Hard to compare that to adding brewed coffee. Did you have something as a guideline that suggested this much?
 
well this was initially designed as a 5gall recipe. so I had 1 gallon left to mix with the sugar and add in for secondary fermentation (theory that adding the simple sugars later would allow the more complex maltose to ferment out as best it could without being hampered by the sucrose). so adding 1/2 gallon to each was planned, but I couldnt get the sugar to dissolve properly in the coffee with only 1/2gal since I couldnt boil it after brewing. so I added more coffee. there is about 1/2lb of coffee that was brewed, and it wont be sitting on it for months in secondary, so it wont be as strong as you imagine. I have cold brewed coffee before, 1lb in 1gallon in the fridge for a few days, strain and drink, and its thick like espresso... this wont be that bad, and will add taste instead of water it down, since it was planned on adding 1/2 gal anyways.

was gonna do this last night, but I have to get the current beer out of the carboy first, and my dishwasher takes too long to wash bottles. normal cycle takes almost 3hrs, and I can't use the sanitize rinse and dry feature on the 1hr powerwash cycle. and sani-rinse adds an hour, and dry adds an hour, and they are HOT after. so I ran that last night (PBW cleaner for detergent) and they will be good tonight
 
dichotomous said:
well this was initially designed as a 5gall recipe. so I had 1 gallon left to mix with the sugar and add in for secondary fermentation (theory that adding the simple sugars later would allow the more complex maltose to ferment out as best it could without being hampered by the sucrose). so adding 1/2 gallon to each was planned, but I couldnt get the sugar to dissolve properly in the coffee with only 1/2gal since I couldnt boil it after brewing. so I added more coffee. there is about 1/2lb of coffee that was brewed, and it wont be sitting on it for months in secondary, so it wont be as strong as you imagine. I have cold brewed coffee before, 1lb in 1gallon in the fridge for a few days, strain and drink, and its thick like espresso... this wont be that bad, and will add taste instead of water it down, since it was planned on adding 1/2 gal anyways.

was gonna do this last night, but I have to get the current beer out of the carboy first, and my dishwasher takes too long to wash bottles. normal cycle takes almost 3hrs, and I can't use the sanitize rinse and dry feature on the 1hr powerwash cycle. and sani-rinse adds an hour, and dry adds an hour, and they are HOT after. so I ran that last night (PBW cleaner for detergent) and they will be good tonight
Click to expand...

Just to make sure I understand things correctly... You intentionally did not top off to reach your recipe's final volume. You left out a half gallon of top-off water with plans to add it post-fermentation. Instead though, you will add 1 gallon of strong coffee. So really, you're just diluting it by a half gallon. If so, my dilution concerns are less. However, my concerns about the amount of coffee still remain. Since you're adding liquid coffee and not coffee beans it does not really matter how long the beer sits in secondary - the coffee flavor will already be there and you can't pull the beer off the coffee. Again, I really don't know how your flavor will be since I have no experience with adding brewed coffee to a beer. It may be perfect. But a gallon added to 2 gallons of beer seems like a lot. This would be like filling a pint glass 1/3 with strong coffee and then topping it off with beer. Maybe someone else here has some experience doing something like this and can offer more concrete input.
 
JLem said:
Just to make sure I understand things correctly... You intentionally did not top off to reach your recipe's final volume. You left out a half gallon of top-off water with plans to add it post-fermentation. Instead though, you will add 1 gallon of strong coffee. So really, you're just diluting it by a half gallon. If so, my dilution concerns are less. However, my concerns about the amount of coffee still remain. Since you're adding liquid coffee and not coffee beans it does not really matter how long the beer sits in secondary - the coffee flavor will already be there and you can't pull the beer off the coffee. Again, I really don't know how your flavor will be since I have no experience with adding brewed coffee to a beer. It may be perfect. But a gallon added to 2 gallons of beer seems like a lot. This would be like filling a pint glass 1/3 with strong coffee and then topping it off with beer. Maybe someone else here has some experience doing something like this and can offer more concrete input.
Click to expand...

well, thats why its experimental. might be great, might not. likely will still be drinkable in july....


unionrdr said:
Also,maltodextrin only ferments out a max of 5%,as it's used to add mouth feel to the beer. So less is more here.
Click to expand...

didnt use any maltodextrin, I mentioned maltose, the sugar type in malted barley....
 
well, I split it last night. I did stir it up a couple hours prior, definately still got some trub everywhere. it was quite a process.

1. clean/sanitize bottling bucket and transfer siphon.
2. transfer nut brown ale to bottling bucket (adding in priming sugar/water)
3. clean/sanitize carboy
4. transfer all caramel imperial stout to carboy
5. clean/sanitize primary fermenter
6. add 1/2gal water/2lbs sugar to fermenter, fill fermenter to 2.5gal with caramel imperial stout in carboy.
7. add 1gal coffee/sugar mix to remaining 2gal in carboy
8. bottle nut brown ale with wife capping.

all this while mother in law is watching and making comments and telling me how my nut brown ale smells STRONG (its not) and the stout is gross....
 
Good luck Dichotomus! Definitely interested in hearing how this turns out...very interesting brew/method...

I've use coffee many times in stouts and I usually brew a fairly strong 10 cup pot of dark roast coffee and dump in the kettle at flame out. That works great for me...plenty of coffee flavor with one pot.

:mug:
 

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