What would it take for me to get a sink down in my basement beer cave?

[twd000]

I haven't brewed yet in the new house, but I have setup the kegerator in an unfinished part of the basement, shared with the laundry appliances. I have been carrying water and kegs up and down the stairs. There is no floor drain, but the stack to my septic field goes right through the wall, and I have hot and cold water I could tap off the washing machine supply. This seems like a DIY plumbing job. I would want a deep utility sink, plus some sort of ejector pump to get the gray water up to the drain stack. Do I need an auto sump pump, or is there some manual pump that is cheaper? I see a lot of options but hard to know what will meet my needs on a budget View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1476406186.369378.jpg

 

[mattym5]

An electric ejector pump is your best bet. It's basically a self-contained sump pump just for your sink. There's a small reservoir that that sump pump sits in. As you use the sink, that reservoir fills and eventually activates the pump which will then pump up your discharge pipe and into your septic line.

 

[twd000]

wow, the ejector pumps I'm seeing are $200! Is there a cheaper option that would work, given that I don't need high flow rate or head pressure? It's only about three feet head, and I don't care if it takes a few minutes to drain the tub

 

[itsme6582]

If you have any thoughts of adding a bathroom in the basement, you can also run a sink to an upflush toilet. You sure won't do this for $200 though.

 

[twd000]

no need for a bathroom; there are 2.5 baths on the top two floors

 

[madscientist451]

$200 is about the lowest price you are going to get. One alternative would be to build a 10x 12 brewery addition on the house and then the sink could drain normally, but that would cost way more than $200. I'd say spending the $200 isn't a bad a deal if you can avoid carrying the carboys and kegs up and down the steps.

 

[day_trippr]

Could one drain the sink into a 6g bucket with a ~$60 1/3 hp submersible sump pump with a foot valve atop the output and have that do the lifting?

Cheers!

 

[jsprinceiii]

Pump would definitely make it easier.
Make sure to keep an eye on the maximum temperature for the pumps.
Most are around 120(F).

 

[twd000]

so is an ejector pump that same thing as a sump pump, without the long 2-foot pickup tube?

Is there a good trusted brand for the ejector pump?

 

[wilserbrewer]

Could one drain the sink into a 6g bucket with a ~$60 1/3 hp submersible sump pump with a foot valve atop the output and have that do the lifting?



Cheers!

Sure, you could rig up a pump in a bucket and pump it anywhere you want. The issue here is that you are pumping into a sanitary sewer with nasty sewer gas and other unpleasantness!!!

This is why you want a sealed and properly vented system. Connecting to a sewer is something that requires a proper installation meeting code, hence the more sophisticated equipment and price.

I suppose if you wanted to make a "temporary" not to code drain you could collect in a bucket and pump into the same or similar that the washing machine is using.

 

[singybrue]

I think a 5-7 gallon bucket with a cheap sump pump routed to the washing machine drain standpipe would be your cheapest/best hillbilly option.

 

[IslandLizard]

I think a 5-7 gallon bucket with a cheap sump pump routed to the washing machine drain standpipe would be your cheapest/best hillbilly option.

^ This.

You can probably patch a Y into the top part of the washing machine standpipe so you can have both drains connected at the same time. I'd hate switching the drain hoses out and one day you'll forget to put the right one back in...

There's a P-trap on the bottom of the (short) washing machine standpipe. One thing to check for, when the washing machine drains, do you get any backup or does it flush smoothly and fast? That's important.

 

[IslandLizard]

My finished lower level has a sewer drain at a similar height as the one in your basement. The lower level bathroom uses a "sewer injection system," but the washing machine in the utility room 40 feet away seems to drain into some sump/drain field in the back yard.

The auto shut-off switch from the sewer injection system stopped working a while ago running the pump dry for several hours until I noticed it. I've shut it off and we don't use that bathroom anymore until I scrounge up enough courage to stick my head into that pit... The reservoir is maybe 1.5 cubic feet, that's not much before it overflows.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Hey lizard, it's sewer "ejection" not injection lol that's a nasty thought

From the sound of it your ejector pump float may just have gotten a little tangled causing the pump to run. Before you stick your head in there you may be able to just remove the vent pipe and get a look in the tank....may be as simple as knocking the float free with a stick. Idk just a thought.

 

[twd000]

yes the washing machine is already isolated from septic gasses by the P-trap. The washing machine pump lifts the water to that height, then gravity takes over. So building a Y into that standpipe, and adding the sump pump output, would basically be the same thing. Could I put this in a 6 gallon bucket and do the job?

http://www.harborfreight.com/13-hp-submersible-sump-pump-with-vertical-float-3000-gph-68476.html

 

[IslandLizard]

That pump should do it, maybe I'd go for something a little stronger. Not sure how secure that particular automatic float system is, but you'll always be there when you're using it. If it fails at some point all you get is wet feet.

Measure the height under the utility sink, I don't think there's enough space for an (old) 6 gallon brew bucket. A small tub may do it. But if you're like me and find utility sinks quite a bit too low you can raise it and thus create more space underneath.

 

[IslandLizard]

Hey lizard, it's sewer "ejection" not injection lol that's a nasty thought

From the sound of it your ejector pump float may just have gotten a little tangled causing the pump to run. Before you stick your head in there you may be able to just remove the vent pipe and get a look in the tank....may be as simple as knocking the float free with a stick. Idk just a thought.

Yeah, whatever side one's on, it's never pleasant.

I lifted the lid. The float is in a tube attached to the pump. The pit is empty, almost dry, and fairly clean actually. It pretty much had only sink and clean water drained into it over the last 6 years. I really don't like these contraptions, they're bound to fail any day. Time for a water-level alarm.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I would be careful of getting a stronger pump as that one can likely pump more water that the little stand pipe can take...

 

[wishingiwasfishing]

I was in a similar position and just installed a Liberty 405 sink pump. It is rated up to 180f water. I haven't used it a whole lot, but so far it seems like a real nice, adequate, unit. I found the best price at Amazon. Though it's not cheap...I just didn't want to buy another pump later to do it right. You will need a vent line though.

good luck

 

[Maylar]

There are pumps made specifically for what you're looking to do. They mount under the sink and pump uphill to a drain like your washing machine trap. That way you have a real sink, not a silly bucket with a sump pump. Here's an example -

https://www.amazon.com/Simer-2925B-Sump-Laundry-Sink/dp/B00296QCJ6

Edit: Or a Liberty pump, per the previous post.

 

[wilserbrewer]

For an extra hundred bucks plus minus it may be worth having a proper laundry sink next to your washer dryer....

Otherwise you should likely empty the temporary sump after each use as it may get nasty if left wet

 

[twd000]

I'm not concerned about high temperature. I won't be dumping any strike water doesn't there. The hottest water would be straight from the hot water tap maybe 140F. I brew in the garage, not in the basement.

I'm trying to understand the difference between a "sump in a bucket" and a Liberty pump, which looks like a sump in a plastic housing. Head pressure is a non issue; both list 20-25 feet heat- I only need to lift 3-4 feet. Flow rate of 30-50 GPM is more than adequate. I'm planning to use it to wash and rinse kegs and carboys, 1-2 gallons at a time.

So what feature distinguishes a $60 sump pump from a $200 Liberty ejector pump? I'm willing to pay the extra cash if I can understand what it buys me

 

[thunderwagn]

Basically, a sump pump is designed for "ground water" only and typically ejects back to the ground or storm drainage. No vent required.
An ejector type pump, like the Liberty, is designed for grey and or waste water. It ties into the sanitary, and as such, requires a vent. Hence the vent connection on the pump. If you tie into the sanitary properly, you should run the drain up vertically above your sanitary line and drop in. It should be vented, in which case, you may or may not be able to use an air admittance valve depending on local plumbing code.
If it was me, and my washer was already trapped, vented and ejected, I'd tie a laundry tub into that line and call it a day.

 

[tjmac5071]

I am actually looking to do something similar but I would honestly prefer sump out into the yard. This is because we are frequently on water ban and if I can water some flowers/grass rather than push into my septic I would want that. I am years away from tackling similar for laundry, shower but this seems easy enough and is not a major investment if it doesn't work right

 

[thunderwagn]

I am actually looking to do something similar but I would honestly prefer sump out into the yard. This is because we are frequently on water ban and if I can water some flowers/grass rather than push into my septic I would want that. I am years away from tackling similar for laundry, shower but this seems easy enough and is not a major investment if it doesn't work right

You should hit up some gardening sites. They're a crafty bunch when it comes to collecting and using water For not much $ and some crafty engineering, you should be able to eject out into a 55 gallon drum or cistern. I'd never say that outloud though!

 

[wilserbrewer]

The $200 ejector pump type systems are sealed and vented, and are a permanent solution that meets code. A sump pump in a bucket fed into your washer stand pipe will likely start to smell up the room if not clean and dry between uses. If not emptied and cleaned between uses, a simple sump bucket has the potential to produce sewer gases that will be released inside your home.

Someday when you sell your home, a sump pump and bucket would most likely fail inspection.

If you don't mind dealing with the additional effort of keeping the sump bucket clean, go for it. If left unattended the sump bucket may contain nasty smelly stagnant water, which could be considered a health hazard.

"Code" has no idea what your putting down the sink, and accommodates the worse case condition like someone rinsing out poopy diapers yuck!

Agreed, very tempting to just put in a simple pump, but there are also sound reasons not to.

 

[wishingiwasfishing]

You're getting plenty of good responses and discussion for/against a sink pump. While making my descision, I knew that I may have high temperature water being discharged, which was why I chose the 405 sinkpump. I also knew that I would have grey waste (grains, hops, trub) that would be cleaned out, after being dumped in garbage.

I have had the pump for a very short time, so I can't talk about longevity of the 405. I alo have never seen the 404. But I can say that I'm impressed with the build quality of the 405 so far...it's built nicer than I would have thought...I also expected it to be louder than it is. One thing to consider is that an AAV did not work for me...we had to run a vent and lucked out having one stubbed into the basement ceiling. Check your local codes if they let you side vent, that may be a solution...but certainly check if you feel compelled to.

You can get away with a super cheap system if you want. Perhaps a used wash basin and valve the drain line into a 5 gallon bucket.

 

[IslandLizard]

The $200 ejector pump type systems are sealed and vented, and are a permanent solution that meets code. A sump pump in a bucket fed into your washer stand pipe will likely start to smell up the room if not clean and dry between uses. If not emptied and cleaned between uses, a simple sump bucket has the potential to produce sewer gases that will be released inside your home.

Someday when you sell your home, a sump pump and bucket would most likely fail inspection.

If you don't mind dealing with the additional effort of keeping the sump bucket clean, go for it. If left unattended the sump bucket may contain nasty smelly stagnant water, which could be considered a health hazard.

"Code" has no idea what your putting down the sink, and accommodates the worse case condition like someone rinsing out poopy diapers yuck!

Agreed, very tempting to just put in a simple pump, but there are also sound reasons not to.

This definitely sums it up.

But there's a common sense area that should not be ignored. One could easily avoid spending $200+ on an overpriced closed ejection "system*" and instead, drain into buckets for incidental use. It all depends on how one uses the low tech system.

*That pump does not look any better than the $50 one from HF. They all have a weak point, the switch...

To help prevent future problems in my sewer line, I dump trub and keg residue into buckets and either pour over the compost pile or spread out in the yard. There's no soap or chemicals involved in this effluent. If I let those buckets stand for a day or 2 they get smelly, may even start to ferment, and after dumping them they definitely need to be rinsed out as a thick biofilm is clinging to them.

I would not pump this "thick" stuff down that washing machine standpipe either, but the rinse water that follows, I see no problems with. You could put a splash of bleach in that drain bucket, when you're done, or simply rinse it out when needed. Heck stick a lid on it and make your own closed system.

Just remember, when pumping up, whatever is in the rising hose or pipe will flow back unless you put a check valve on the bottom. Until the next time of use, that water remains in the hose or pipe or slowly drains back into your bucket.

 

[CGVT]

From the FWIW department.

Spend the extra $$ and do it right. If not, you will piss around with it, it won't work the way you want, you'll spend extra time and money to try to make it work and in the long run, you'll get the proper pump anyway and end up spending more than you would have if you would have done it right the first time.

 

[mongoose33]

For an extra hundred bucks plus minus it may be worth having a proper laundry sink next to your washer dryer....

Otherwise you should likely empty the temporary sump after each use as it may get nasty if left wet

IMO, this is an excellent way to think about it. The cost of doing it properly and permanently is not $200; it's whatever the price difference is between doing it as a hack, and doing it right.

I know money doesn't grow on trees, but rarely have I ever regretted doing something the right and best way.