What to pitch for a Flanders Red Soleria

[DeMerchant]

BTW, I never took Spanish so I'm not the authority, but it's solera, not soleria...I believe soleria refers to floors or flooring whereas solera is the aging and fractional blending process.

Is this not a website dedicated to flooring?

But in all seriousness, thanks for the correction (and input)

 

[microbusbrewery]

Is this not a website dedicated to flooring?

But in all seriousness, thanks for the correction (and input)

Ha! No problem, happy to contribute and I hope it turns out well.

 

[DeMerchant]

So, to update this project I moved the 15gal from 3 carboys into a large PVC barrel (maybe I'll post a pic here at some point) after 3 months, and then racked a new batch of beer onto the yeast cake (brutal brew day... didn't bag leaf hops... bad idea). The three batches were interestingly different with the WLP644 being almost saisony (maybe I added my TYB Lacto Blend too late... I added more when I put in the fresh wort), the Roeselare batch was about what I expected with not much sourness but a little, and the batch that was both Roeselare and dregs from one bottle was pleasantly sour.

The strange thing was that my fermentations in all three carboys that I pitched fresh wort onto fermented with little to no krausen (MAYBE a 1/4 of an inch) I can't figure out why that would happen to all three batches unless someone strange happened in the brew, but I guess RAHAHB.

 

[kenoglass]

Our club did a barrel solera. We used the rare red barrel. Some made it clean others didn't. Once into the barrel then we added a ton of dregs that we drank that day. I had a pull of 4 gallons off it a month ago and it's some good beer.

 

[TheHairyHop]

So, to update this project I moved the 15gal from 3 carboys into a large PVC barrel (maybe I'll post a pic here at some point) after 3 months, and then racked a new batch of beer onto the yeast cake (brutal brew day... didn't bag leaf hops... bad idea). The three batches were interestingly different with the WLP644 being almost saisony (maybe I added my TYB Lacto Blend too late... I added more when I put in the fresh wort), the Roeselare batch was about what I expected with not much sourness but a little, and the batch that was both Roeselare and dregs from one bottle was pleasantly sour.

The strange thing was that my fermentations in all three carboys that I pitched fresh wort onto fermented with little to no krausen (MAYBE a 1/4 of an inch) I can't figure out why that would happen to all three batches unless someone strange happened in the brew, but I guess RAHAHB.

I'm not sure if I understood what your process is, but ime 644 has never produced much of a krausen

 

[DeMerchant]

Ok, so long time, no update this thread... it's pretty much a year since I moved the fist 15 gal into the barrel and everything seems to be working well enough. I pulled 5gal (out of ~30 total at this point) and carbed it up.
I’ve got two things to deal with really:

Problem 1 – The beer is good, but not particularly complex. I think I’ll do two things to respond to that:
Solution 1A – Continue to pitch dregs. I plan to brew ~10-15 gal more to refill the barrel when I do my second pull, and I’ll pitch dregs into beer fermented with just US-05 to give the dregs a chance to establish themselves before I transfer into the solera.
Solution 1B – Add some more oak. I added a 5oz of oak cubes soaked in red wine. I didn’t find this had much oakyness so I’ll add some more. I suppose compared to a real barrel 5oz in 30 gal is pretty minor. Any thoughts on how much I should add.

Problem 2 – The beer is pretty sour. Not painfully so, but it certainly doesn’t need to be any more sour and it might be better with a little less sourness. I have two options to deal with this:
Solution 2A – Ferment clean with US-05, and then ferment completely with a brett strain. I’d probably do 5 gal like this, and kind of blend the barrel to taste.
Solution 2B – Brew my next batch with a higher IBU (like 7ish) so that the overall IBUs of the barrel increase somewhat.

Your thoughts on the above are appreciated.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Complexity:

pitch dregs into beer fermented with just US-05

It might be better to use a "POF+" yeast such as a Belgian or Hefeweizen strain. Brett uses and transforms the flavor compounds, adding more complexity.
Same reason lots of aged hops are used (more compounds = more complexity).

Dregs are widely regarded as the best way to increase complexity. Cell count doesn't really matter, go ahead and pitch right into the barrel whenever you have some available.

I usefully see recommendations for 0.1-0.4oz oak per gallon (0.5-2oz of oak per 5 gallon). You have 0.17oz per gallon. Flavor may vary by nationality, toast, form, & preparation... So it's good to be cautious; you don't want too much!

Acidity:
As you said I would just increase the IBU (with non-aged hops) if you want less acid in the future.
Blending is an excellent idea, except I might use a more flavorful yeast than 05.

Sounds like you're on the right track
Cheers

 

[DeMerchant]

Thanks a lot for the thoughts. I think I'll brew 15gal this weekend and probably split it three ways:

• Aged hops only & fermented with Flanders Specialty Ale yeast... I'll use this for pitching the dregs of whatever I drink between now and when I transfer into the barrel
• Aged hops only & fermented with a Hefe yeast, TYB Brussels Brettanomyces Blend, and a repitch of my house sour culture
• Hopped & fermented with a Belgian yeast and TYB Beersel Brettanomyces Blend... I'll use this as my sourness limiter

I'm going to give some more thought to the oak (BTW I had french medium toast which I boiled and then aged on wine for a month or so)... but I'm thinking I'll add another 5oz when I add this batch to the barrel.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Sounds awesome!

french medium toast which I boiled and then aged on wine for a month or so

Depending on boil length and whether you added the wine to your barrel, this could explain why you didn't get much oak flavor. Or maybe the sourness is just overpowering it?

I wanted to get a 55 gal drum for a Flanders Red solera (it's my favorite beer style) but swmbo nixed that idea.

 

[AMessenger]

Really neat project and interesting approach. Would be interested to see a picture of that fermenter.

Are you considering setting up additional, smaller, tiers of solera? I would think that could help with getting a wider variety of flavors in your beers which you could use in blending. Just having one 30 gal batch seems a bit limiting.

 

[DeMerchant]

Are you considering setting up additional, smaller, tiers of solera? I would think that could help with getting a wider variety of flavors in your beers which you could use in blending. Just having one 30 gal batch seems a bit limiting.

I've considered it, but don't really have the room. At some point I'm sure I'll have to move, and moving a 30gal barrel doesn't sound like much fun so... I also have a couple of 15 gal cornies that would be a lot easier for this. Maybe it I get into a permanent house or something I'd do some of those. I do also have a 15gal demijohn of lambic (although it might be more of a golden sour).

Here's a pic of my solera!

 

[DeMerchant]

So I'm a ways into the project now. I've almost kicked the 5 gal I pulled straight, and just racked 5 gal onto 13lbs of sour cherries (which should be ready right around my birthday!). I also added about 13 gal back into the barrel (3 batches discussed above - 1 house blend, 1 dregs, 1 hopped/brett) along with another 5oz of oak, so the barrel is nice and full now. I was concerned about o2 getting into the barrel, so I took the opportunity to caulk the lid shut, sealed one of the two screw off caps on the top, and used thread putty on the second sap. Hopefully that prevents any more excess o2 ingress. Anyway, things seem to be going well so far. Here's a pic of the pellicle when I took the lid off (looks good and healthy) and the cherries in the carboy before I added the sour beer on top (I'm a little concerned I might have added too much, but that seems like an ok problem to have.

https://ibb.co/mfAriz] [/url]
https://ibb.co/fHshqe] [/url]

 

[DeMerchant]

So the project continues. I tried a bottle that I pulled and force carbed; it was good, sour, and probably a little more complex than last year. My only complaint would be that the beer is a little thin - I suppose I could try mashing a little higher (or a lot higher) although I've been mashing in the high 150s previously. Further, after my adjustments last year it was a bit lighter than I was looking for, so I did this batch just at the high end of normal. Once it ferments out I'll be pulling this years 5 gal straight and putting 5 gallons onto raspberries. My 'barrel' is also a lot more air tight this year clearly judging by what the various temperature changes did to the cover.

One issue I dealt with was tetrahydropyridine (THP) which got picked up by the judges at my local homebrew comp big time. When I read up on the subject and tried the beer it was pretty clear to me too. I was super confused; understanding that it could be caused by o2 pickup at bottling and stressed yeast/bugs but I force carbed so I was miffed. I then aged the beer warm for a while and it didn't really clear up. I also had the same problem with my lambic style beer. I used my house sour blend for both batches so I assumed that was the underlying cause, but...

Reading the Milk The Funk Wiki I think I've figured out the problem:

"Limiting oxygen exposure during kegging/force carbonating is recommended for helping to reduce ATHP production; even very small amounts can have an effect (although the exact threshold of how much oxygen is required has not been determined). For example, the purity of the CO2 supply should thus be taken into consideration when force carbonating. At 0.5% impurity (the impurity is air, 1/5 of which is oxygen) and at 2 volumes of CO2, ~1,420 ppb of O2 would be added to the packaged beer, which is an exceedingly high amount of oxygen. The CO2 supply should ideally be 99.990% pure or better (this would introduce 46 ppb of oxygen at 2 volumes of CO2). The method that the CO2 is added can also determine how much oxygen is introduced into the packaged beer. Sparging CO2 (bubbling it through the beer) dissolves significantly less oxygen due to Henry's Law (see reference), while injecting (flushing) dissolves significantly more oxygen. Vessel purging methods with CO2 are also less efficient than some might expect, and might still leave enough oxygen behind to stimulate THP production (see this HomebrewTalk thread)."
​

Perhaps I'm jumping to conclusions. I suppose there is a distinct possibility my house mix is causing the off flavour, or perhaps there is something else in my process I'm missing, but I think the most likely culprit is my co2 supply. I'm going to talk to my shop next time I go in to refill my tank and see if they know what their purity level is. Either way I think this season I'll give pitching fresh yeast and sugar into the keg a try and see how that works.

Anyway, I suppose I'm looking for input on a couple of things:

• What adjustments could I make to get this beer less thin?
• Thoughts on my theory on what is contributing to my THP issue? Any other solutions? What process do you like for pitching fresh yeast/sugar into kegs for sour beer?

 

[RPh_Guy]

What adjustments could I make to get this beer less thin?

What's your water profile?

Thoughts on my theory on what is contributing to my THP issue? Any other solutions? What process do you like for pitching fresh yeast/sugar into kegs for sour beer?

Low Oxygen kegging:
Closed transfer if possible.
High purity CO2 if available.
Purge the keg by pushing out low-oxygen sanitizer.
Purge lines too.
Naturally carbonate with simple sugar AND in this case use an "acid shock starter" for the carbonating yeast (e.g. EC1118).

THP is just an unfortunate problem a lot of the time from oxygen exposure. It should age away after 2-6 months at room temp but can take longer. Carbonating with yeast prepared in an acid shock starter is regarded as the most effective way to eliminate oxygen and avoid THP.

 

[DeMerchant]

What's your water profile?

Here's my profile (post adjustments):

• Calcium (ppm) - 53
  
• Magnesium (ppm) - 22
  
• Sodium (ppm) - 15
  
• Sulfate (ppm) - 123
  
• Chloride (ppm) - 0 with campden
  
• Bicarbonate (ppm) - 54
  
• Mash ph - 5.28

 

[RPh_Guy]

• Sulfate (ppm) - 123

• Chloride (ppm) - 0 with campden

That's why it tastes thin. Lower the sulfate and increase the chloride.

I don't think campden lowers/removes chloride ion ..?

 

[cactusgarrett]

Naturally carbonate with simple sugar AND in this case use an "acid shock starter" for the carbonating yeast (e.g. EC1118).

This. Big time.

 

[DeMerchant]

THP is just an unfortunate problem a lot of the time from oxygen exposure. It should age away after 2-6 months at room temp but can take longer. Carbonating with yeast prepared in an acid shock starter is regarded as the most effective way to eliminate oxygen and avoid THP.

This approach worked great. Very little or no THP in this years versions of my beer.

 

[DeMerchant]

2nd Year Beer

The feedback was positive from judges and this years version took 2nd in the comp I entered. 2 comments from the judges to consider:

• They comment it could use a little stronger malt backbone; the batch I added when I pulled this version was a little darker so perhaps that will help (although I get darker doesn't really equal maltier). What other approach could I use to make this a little maltier? Maybe switching out 2-row as my base malt for something like vienna or munich?
• They thought some oak would really "put it over the top" which is a bit funny since I already had added 283g of oak (boiled 5 minutes) to the solera. There's 113L at any one time in there, and at that point there had been more like 150L, so that's a little less than 2g/L. I find it barely noticeable, if noticeable at all so I'll probably add another 200g of oak (and another 37L of beer has gone through the process) so that will up it to more like 2.5g/L and we'll see if that does the trick.

I also did a raspberry version of the beer on 2.25kg of frozen raspberries on 19L... so that's like 120g/l... it's like raspberry juice which I guess is good but it really masks the underlying beer completely. I guess maybe the fact that they were frozen berries throws off the normal fruiting rates. The beer was well received though and also placed second in its competitive 28C category.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'm sitting here drinking a Rodenbach Grand Cru, which the BJCP lists as an example for the style. It comes across as rather sweet, and there's definitely some malty character, like Munich combined with some darker malt (presumably special b), but the flavor is a lot like Sherry. It's less malty than most fresh beers this color. The oak character is almost undetectable, only becoming apparent as it warms, mainly in the aroma.
Overall impression: sweet, light, and fruity with notes of dark malt and mild sourness.

I think a lot of judges have trouble judging uncommon styles like this, and their personal preferences come into play more than the guidelines. Competitions are always a crapshoot.

Your recipe should have a fair amount of Munich or vienna, maybe some crystal, maybe some aromatic, and definitely some special B.

If you want a tried and true malt base, Jamil Z's recipe is pretty reasonable among all the homebrew recipes I've seen and it produces a nice balanced malt background for this style.
For example:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/rodenbach-clone.224122/
https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2007/04/with-re-release-of-wyeasts-roeselare.html
https://www.morebeer.com/products/flanders-red-ale-grain-beer-brewing-kit-5-gallons.html

Hope this helps

 

[Funky Frank]

I bet your oak is pretty spot on regardless of the comments. It should really be a filler in the style that is missed when not present but never in your face.

As for the malt, I would replace the 2row with Vienna and make sure you have 2-3 different crystal malts totaling about 15% (like caramunich 3 and golden naked oats with a touch of Sp B).