What to do with my first batch?

[Chris Walker]

My wife does not drink beer, so in order to justify some of recent hobby expenses I thought I would try a small batch of cider which she does like.

I used store bought fresh (pasteurized) sweet apple cider topped up with a little of canned "not from concentrate" juice, 1 cup strong English tea for tannin, yeast nutrient and pectin enzyme. (OG 1.042) fermented with lalvin EC-1118 yeast at 17deg.C

The fermentation started almost immediately and was vigorous for approx 1 week. It is now 10 days since pitching and everything looks to have stopped (or at least slowed to almost nothing.) It is very clear...see picture.

Being new to this I have read numerous threads but still not 100% sure on how to proceed from here.

I think I need to rack to secondary. However, 1st question is I have some head space in the current 1 Gallon growler and there is about an inch or so sediment. If I transfer to a fresh growler will I have too much head space for secondary? - I don't really have anything else of appropriate size.
I want to end up on the slightly dry side of medium and carbonated but am very nervous about the "bottle bomb" threat.
With beer I have always bottle carbonated with drops and had no issues but I get the feeling cider is perhaps more volatile?
I am considering moving to a kegs and as I only normally brew 2.5 to 3 Gal batches I would get 2.5G corny kegs - would that be OK for a 1 gallon batch of cider?
I am also confused as to how I would sweeten? from what I have read it seems necessary to stop the ferment with sulphites (so all the sugar is not fermented out) but then how will it bottle carbonate? - presumably this is easier in a keg as can stop the ferment and then carbonate with CO2 tank?

Any suggestions would be gratefully received.

 

[Pappers_]

The cider will ferment out to bone dry, unless you stop the yeast. If you backsweeten without stopping the yeast, the yeast will eat that up too.

If you want dry cider, you can let it ferment out completely then bottle as you would beer. But if you want to backsweeten it, you need to stop the yeast and then you can't bottle carb it. That's the conundrum.

Some options:

1. Still but sweetened
2. Sparkling but dry
3. Keg, force carb
4. Backsweeten with a non-fermentable
5. Bottle pasteurize (see sticky thread)

Cheers!

 

[Chris Walker]

Wow, thanks for the very prompt reply! - that's a really nice summery.

I think the keg route is looking favourite - this gives me more justification for the beer brews ;o)
If I do that should I leave it in primary until ready to keg and when is the best time to add sulphites?

Also, when you say "sparkling but dry" - how dry is that? - I understand that is a bit subjective and hard to answer but I have only ever had mass produced cider and even the ones labelled dry seem to still have some apple flavour. On other threads I have noticed people saying it starts to taste more like wine if left to ferment out completely.

Thanks again.

 

[bernardsmith]

Unlike beer , fruits , including apples will ferment 100% so the final gravity may be below 1.000 , say .996 and that is dry. (your beers are , what? typically around 1.010 - 1.015?) If your wife prefers a sweeter cider you may want then to stabilize this (with K-meta and K-sorbate) and then backsweeten. If you backsweeten balance is critical - (the mix of TA (that's the amount of acid in the cider , not the pH which is the strength of the acids - with apples the dominant acid is malic and malic is a strong acid), alcohol, tannic bite and flavor) so the best approach is to bench test.

The amount of apple flavor will depend on a host of factors including the aggressiveness of the yeast (your choice was to pick perhaps the most aggressive so much of the flavor will be blown off), the choice of apples for the juice (your choice was for apples juiced for soft drinks so typically less flavor-rich as the manufacturer hides lack of flavor behind the apples' sweetness), and the length of time you allow the cider to age (longer aging often allows the apple flavors to move forward).

Cider tastes like cider if you make cider and tastes like wine if you make wine. Cider is usually about 5-7% ABV so the fruit flavor is not displaced by the heat from the alcohol. Wine is usually about 10 - 12% ABV so the alcohol is more forward but should be balanced with the richness of the fruit flavor. Upping the SG by adding sugar does not increase flavor but does increase ethanol. But your SG - 1.042 means that the potential ABV is about 5.5%. All other things being equal it should taste like cider albeit a cider made from supermarket apple juice.

 

[Danlund443]

I am new to ciders as well but I found that putting sanitized glass marbles in the secondary helps take up the head space and won't affect taste.

 

[Chris Walker]

I am new to ciders as well but I found that putting sanitized glass marbles in the secondary helps take up the head space and won't affect taste.

Hi Danlund,
That's a great idea! - thanks for that.
I don't have glass marbles, but I do have stainless ball bearings which I could boil + Starsan. I'll just have to be careful when putting them in.

 

[bernardsmith]

You do have to be careful dropping marbles or steel ball bearings into a carboy.. and certainly filling head space with marbles and the like is an effective solution but you may want to consider looking for a smaller container...

 

[MarkKF]

Was thinking. Can’t you get dowels and cut them shorter than the carboy. Soak em in starsan or liquor and drop them in?

 

[bernardsmith]

What would adding dowels do? Archimedes (the ancient Greek ) would tell you that you need a fair amount of MASS to displace enough liquid to get the level to rise. Can't see how a stack of dowels would displace a significant amount of liquid - ignore, for the moment, that dowel wood is likely to soak up a great deal of liquid so adding wood may lower the level rather than raise it.

 

[MarkKF]

I don’t know I was just thinking they sell cubes or spirals to oak in a carboy.

 

[bernardsmith]

That's absolutely true but those cubes displace almost no volume of liquid and again, you might find that they absorb a little liquid - that's why glass and stainless steel marbles are often used. They are fairly massy (but you might find that you will need pounds and pounds of marbles to displace enough liquid) and they do not absorb liquid. Another very different method of displacing the liquid (and there is a risk here) is to stuff a balloon inside the carboy and fill it with water... that water will displace the liquid to fill the space BUT if the balloon leaks ...

 

[Chris Walker]

...so how much head space is too much head space in secondary? (for the 1 gallon as above)

 

[bernardsmith]

As little as possible - I would say a cubic inch is about the maximum you want.. less is best.

 

[Chris Walker]

wow, so that little. Am I best just leaving in primary? (that's what I do for beer.) Also, still looking for advice on when to add sulphites if I go the keg route.

 

[bernardsmith]

That's why carboys are great for secondaries. They have very narrow necks and if you fill the secondary up into the neck the space between the surface of the liquid and the bottom of the bung is the head room. That's why - IMO large mouth carboys are not designed for wine makers. They may be great for brewers but wine makers count age in terms of months if not years... Brewers age for - what ?A couple or three weeks?

 

[Chris Walker]

That's why carboys are great for secondaries. They have very narrow necks and if you fill the secondary up into the neck the space between the surface of the liquid and the bottom of the bung is the head room. That's why - IMO large mouth carboys are not designed for wine makers. They may be great for brewers but wine makers count age in terms of months if not years... Brewers age for - what ?A couple or three weeks?

I think this is OK for larger batches where a 6 gallon can be used for primary where more head space required. Then without the sediment and headspace it will just about fit in a 5 gallon nicely. However with a 1 gallon batch I don't know of anything slightly
smaller that is suitable to transfer to.

 

[Maylar]

Here's an example of acceptable head space. The jug in front is a wild ferment that racked to a bit more than 3 quarts. The black at the bottom is from glass flower vase filler stones that I got from a crafts store. It takes a LOT of marbles to fill up a quart's volume.

 

[Pappers_]

With a small, low gravity cider like this I don't think you need to rack to secondary for aging. Rack to whatever vessel you're going to bottle or keg from, leave the yeast behind, and you'll be fine.

If you do secondary, the concern about headspace is over-stated, perhaps. If you're aging your cider for months, yes its important, but that's not the kind of cider you've made.

 

[Silver79]

I agree that a secondary is not necessary in this case, however if you choose to several smaller vessels are not a bad idea For short term secondary adding some small amount of fermentable will put the yeast back to work and force some oxygen out for a short stint in secondary.

 

[Chris Walker]

Thanks everyone for the comments.

Another question...

If I rack to secondary can I top up the volume with filtered apple juice then add sulphites?
My reasoning is...

1. It would remove excess head space
2. Adds sweetness and a little apple flavour back in
3. The sulphites would prevent this being fermented out.

 

[Maylar]

Sulfite and sorbate, yes.

 

[diyHardCider]

I have never done this, but have read that wine preserver could be used if excess head space is a concern.... pushing all the air out of the carboy prior to sealing. Anyone done that?

 

[Chris Walker]

Update:
So in the end I decided to brew up another 2Gallons (same recipe.) I left everything in primary until last week then racked both together directly to a 3gallon keg. I added 2 packs of frozen concentrate for back sweetening and let it carb in the keezer for a week. Did not bother with Sulphite or Sorbate as keezer is 4C.

Results:
1. I can't believe how clear it is!
2. Even with 2 packs of concentrate it's actually fairly dry still but OK.
3. Most importantly it has the wife seal of approval!! - objective complete. ;o)

 

[diyHardCider]

I think you listed the results in reverse order of importance

Great to hear on the good results (too often people don't report back with results!). Couple things:

• Presumably that week of letting it carb was at (nearly) room temperature?
• 2 packs of concentrate (assuming the 12 oz standard container) is quite a lot to add to 3 gallons (1 pack per 5 gallons is sort of the standard). I'd bet it's pretty highly carbonated.
• You'd need to be testing it with a hydrometer to know the specifics, but if you cooled it earlier (maybe 4-5 days after back sweetening instead of a week), it would have been sweeter (and less carbonated).

 

[Chris Walker]

I think you listed the results in reverse order of importance

Great to hear on the good results (too often people don't report back with results!). Couple things:

• Presumably that week of letting it carb was at (nearly) room temperature?
• 2 packs of concentrate (assuming the 12 oz standard container) is quite a lot to add to 3 gallons (1 pack per 5 gallons is sort of the standard). I'd bet it's pretty highly carbonated.
• You'd need to be testing it with a hydrometer to know the specifics, but if you cooled it earlier (maybe 4-5 days after back sweetening instead of a week), it would have been sweeter (and less carbonated).

Once I racked to Keg I put it on about 12(ish)PSI CO2 and moved it to the Keezer at 4C. I specifically didn't want it at room temp as not using any sorbate or sulphites I didn't want the concentrate fermenting out.

I did struggle with the amount of concentrate packs to use. I read so many opinions and really didn't detect any standard or rule of thumb. Anywhere between 1 to 4 or 5 packs in 5Gallons seemed to be the range. Making things even more difficult was the complete lack of frozen concentrate packs in my area. I went to 1/2 dozen supermarket chains and found nothing! They have any number of fruit punches, orange juices and lemonades but nothing for straight apple juice. - the only one I could find was a stores home brand. I was hoping to find something a bit higher quality. See pic attached. It says 283ml which I make 9.6 US fl.oz
I think I was pretty lucky though as in a complete "rookie error" I didn't bother tasting the juice before adding to the keg. - I just assumed it would be OK and didn't assess how sweet it was.
In terms of carbonation, since I had it straight in the keezer to stop fermentation, I think the amount of concentrate will have had no (or very little) effect and only change the sweetness.

You make a great point on the hydrometer reading. I did take OG and FG readings after fermentation but I completely missed taking a reading after racking /sweetening. That would have been a great reference for the future as to how much sugar I'm adding back in and I'm now kicking myself.

What I can say is I am not a fan of sweet drinks (of any sort) and although this brew is primarily for the wife I find it just right. If this was a commercial brew from the store it would definitely be well into the dry category.
Whilst I would never claim to have a sophisticated enough pallet to be a professional taster (by a long way) I am usually quite critical of my own brews. From some comments I saw regarding using the store bought fresh juice rather than pressing my own apples or maybe a cider kit I was expecting it to come out not that great. I'm very pleased to say this is not the case at all and in fact it is quite a bit better than some commercial offerings. I will definitely be brewing this again!

 

[diyHardCider]

Again, great to hear about your success right out of the gate, and using store-bought cider.... I agree this isn't normal. Most likely, the reason you had better luck in your first batch than most is that you were able to get sugar in the final product (you need to either use sorbates or cold crash to do this, both of which aren't typically 'beginner' techniques). The typical beginner buys apple juice, uses campaign yeast, ferments at high temp to dry, and then wonders why it doesn't taste great You are well ahead of the curve in your cider making (not 'brewing', by the way)!!

A very broad general rule is that you need to increase SG by .005 for carbing, and .01 for giving medium sweetness... you could always check the SG now (after carbing/kegging)...just pour a bit from the keg into a glass or test jar and use a hydrometer. The carbonation could affect the reading by a bit, but just try to get rid of some/all of them in your test jar. I'd be curious to hear what it reads... I'd guess in the 1.006 - 1.008 range.

I have a little bit of a tough time finding apple juice concentrate as well... I'm not picky on brands... but make sure it's actual apple juice concentrate (will produce 100% apple juice if reconstituted). There are some that look the same but are branded as 'apple drink' or something generic.. that is mostly sugar water, and will have less apple flavor (and would produce <100% apple juice if reconstituted).