What technique do you use for making sour beer?

[Patirck]

I have read many threads about various souring techniques and I think it would be helpful to have them in one place. So if you have made sour beers, how did you do it and how did it work out?

I have done one Berlinerwiesse using the wlp630 blend. It tasted great when I transferred it to secondary but it got oxidized after that. I am especially interested to find out if there is a way of making sours without having to wait 6 months.

I'll list the basic techniques that I have found so far:

Add some whole or crushed pilsner grain to some wort (about 20% of the total batch so 1 gallon for a 5 gallon batch). Let it sit at warm temps - about 90 degrees for 4 - 7 days. Strain this and pitch it into the remaining 80% portion of the beer.

Pitch lacto and ale yeast (or wheat yeast) at the same time. There are some pre-made combos like wlp630 Berlinerweisse that do this. I suppose one could make their own combo.

Pitch lacto and let it ferment for 3 - 5 days, then add the ale yeast.

Do any one of the above and add lactic acid at bottling.

 

[pdxal]

I do BIAB, and what I do is mash as usual, and after conversion cool the wort to below 120 degrees and pitch in a couple of handfuls of raw malt. Sometimes I mix it, sometimes I just leave it on top. I have both covered the top of the liquid with foil and left it uncovered, but with the lid on the pot.
I let this sit for 2-4 days, on a heating pad to maintain at 90-100 degrees.
Then, I heat up and mash out, and proceed to boiling the wort and fermenting as with any other beer.
This kills the lacto/pedio bacteria, and stabilizes the level of sourness. No bottle bombs too, since there are no live bacteria continuing to chew up sugars in the bottle.
So far, this works great to develop a lactic sourness, but I haven't been able to get much acetic quality to it.

 

[smellysell]

I typically use a commercial blend (Wyeast lambic blend usually) and supplement it with dregs from commercial sour beers. I'll then reuse the yeast cake multiple times. No way to do it quickly this way, but in my opinion anyways, you get a farm more complex result than using a sour mash.

 

[Patirck]

I do BIAB, and what I do is mash as usual, and after conversion cool the wort to below 120 degrees and pitch in a couple of handfuls of raw malt. Sometimes I mix it, sometimes I just leave it on top. I have both covered the top of the liquid with foil and left it uncovered, but with the lid on the pot.
I let this sit for 2-4 days, on a heating pad to maintain at 90-100 degrees.
Then, I heat up and mash out, and proceed to boiling the wort and fermenting as with any other beer.
This kills the lacto/pedio bacteria, and stabilizes the level of sourness. No bottle bombs too, since there are no live bacteria continuing to chew up sugars in the bottle.
So far, this works great to develop a lactic sourness, but I haven't been able to get much acetic quality to it.

Do you leave the bag of grain in the pot for 2 - 4 days or do you pull it out?

How long do you ferment / age and does it increase the level of sourness?

 

[pdxal]

Patirck, I leave the whole mash, grain and wort, in the pot, sour it, then heat up and mash out as usual. You could mash out and then remove the grain, and pitch raw malt and sour it, but I figure I can save a step by souring the whole mash, and use the bag to lauter/remove the mash and raw malt added all at once.
Fermentation time/aging has no effect on the level of sourness because the bacteria are killed in the boil. The level of sourness is determined by how long you sour the mash. You can get extremely sour if you wish, or mild. Without yeast competing, the bacteria sour the mash quickly. I can produce a sour beer in about 5 weeks easily, no need for long aging for the bacteria to work.

 

[Irishpenguin13]

Add a sack o bugs

 

[pericles]

Patrick: you suggest pitching "lacto and let it ferment for 3 - 5 days, then add the ale yeast."

I do the opposite. By letting the ale yeast ferment first, I'm able to control how much the bugs consume. In other words, I'll brew a big dextrinous beer, maybe to 1.75 or so. I'll use a neutral yeast like 001 to bring it down to 1.035, and then let the bugs consume the remaining sugars and long-chain dextrines.

If I want it sourer, I pitch the bugs earlier, say at 1.045. If I want to dial back the sour, I pitch it later, maybe at 1.025. Then I can blend the three beers to my desired sourness.

 

[Patirck]

Patrick: you suggest pitching "lacto and let it ferment for 3 - 5 days, then add the ale yeast."

I do the opposite. By letting the ale yeast ferment first, I'm able to control how much the bugs consume. In other words, I'll brew a big dextrinous beer, maybe to 1.75 or so. I'll use a neutral yeast like 001 to bring it down to 1.035, and then let the bugs consume the remaining sugars and long-chain dextrines.

If I want it sourer, I pitch the bugs earlier, say at 1.045. If I want to dial back the sour, I pitch it later, maybe at 1.025. Then I can blend the three beers to my desired sourness.

That's interesting! I've read elseware that the lacto bugs are not very alcohol tolerant so the idea is to pitch them first, then the sacc that will make the alcahol and kill the lacto bugs. It does make sense to make a bigger beer and divide the sugars between the lacto and sacc bugs.

 

[pericles]

I've read elseware that the lacto bugs are not very alcohol tolerant so the idea is to pitch them first, then the sacc that will make the alcahol and kill the lacto bugs.

I've heard the same thing. But I've also heard that bugs will continue to work, and even consume the dead and dormant sacc yeast cells, months after the neutral has stopped working. That suggests - to me - that even after the sacc has completely fermented the sugars it can work on, the bugs will still work OK.

So I've definitely heard that laco isn't as alcohol tolerant as sacc, but maybe most sour beers just don't get alcoholic enough to be a problem?

 

[Tinga]

I collected second runnings and just put them in some swing top bottles. no chill and no boil and the lacto grew on its own.

you can also harvest lacto from yogurt by seperating the whey from the yogurt and pitching the whey.

 

[Patirck]

I collected second runnings and just put them in some swing top bottles. no chill and no boil and the lacto grew on its own.

you can also harvest lacto from yogurt by seperating the whey from the yogurt and pitching the whey.

How do you separate the whey from the yogurt?

 

[Tinga]

How do you separate the whey from the yogurt?

most of the time when you open your yogurt the liquid is already separated from the yogurt. so just buy one of those single serve organic yogurt from a nice whole foods store that says it has active culturte of lactobacillus something or other. if you open it and it is already separated great. if not sanitize some cheese cloth and a mason jar. place the cheese cloth ontop of the mason jar with some slack hanging down so you can put the yogurt in the depression. scoop some yogurt into that little depression and wrap in plastic wrap and place the mason jar in the fridge for a day. the liquid will be in the bottom. it's a lot more simple than it sounds.

 

[smellysell]

I've heard the same thing. But I've also heard that bugs will continue to work, and even consume the dead and dormant sacc yeast cells, months after the neutral has stopped working. That suggests - to me - that even after the sacc has completely fermented the sugars it can work on, the bugs will still work OK.

So I've definitely heard that laco isn't as alcohol tolerant as sacc, but maybe most sour beers just don't get alcoholic enough to be a problem?

Most species of lacto are tolerant to around 8%. Pedio the same, and brett up to 18%. A common misconception is the lactobacillus produces all the lactic acid. Pedio also produces lactic, as does brett to a less extent. Sound like you're talking more about a berliner weiss, but in a lambic, there is actually little, if any contribution from lactobacillus.

 

[Patirck]

Most species of lacto are tolerant to around 8%. Pedio the same, and brett up to 18%. A common misconception is the lactobacillus produces all the lactic acid. Pedio also produces lactic, as does brett to a less extent. Sound like you're talking more about a berliner weiss, but in a lambic, there is actually little, if any contribution from lactobacillus.

I'm interested in finding out different processes for different styles. I am mostly familiar with berliner wiesse and wan to find an easy method to make some.

I would also like to try making a lambic but I'm not sure I have the patience for the aging process.

 

[smellysell]

I'm interested in finding out different processes for different styles. I am mostly familiar with berliner wiesse and wan to find an easy method to make some.

I would also like to try making a lambic but I'm not sure I have the patience for the aging process.

Yeah, I don't think you can really do a good lambic without the aging. People report having good success making sour/fruited beers with a sour mash though, so that might work for you. I was disappointed with my one attempted, so I dumped the dregs from a couple sour beers in it and let it sit for a year.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

I have made several sour beers by way of sour mashing. I only soured a portion of the mash (pre-boil) so I've never tried to make an extremely sour beer only by sour mashing. I did a cherry wheat beer with a sour mash that ended up with a lacto infection that turned out really well. I also did a sour mash on a brett pale ale. It turned out surprisingly unsour, like the brett did something with the lactic acid to produce bretty flavors.

I have never sour mashed by leaving a full mash sitting. I always mash, sparge and bring to a boil before adding some grains to provide a fresh source of lacto. I have never had a problem getting nasty flavors that way. I think it might have to do with the boil starting the wort fresh for lacto. I'm not really sure why, I just know I've had no problems that way.

You're not going to get something lambic-like with a sour mash because lambic needs some brett character along with the sour. You can however make delicious tart beers with it.

I also have a saison culture that ended up with brett in it (I'm not sure if it came out of the bottle dregs I cultured from or an accidental infection) but it doesn't really come out sour. This winter I might try making a sour mash saison brett and see how that turns out.

I have a lambic going that I made using the Wyeast lambic blend. I plan on letting it go for a year, removing some and then refilling it solera-style.

I have a wild ale culture that is brett-y and has some sort of serious diacetyl-throwing something in it (possible oenococcus?) but it is not sour at all, even after 10 months.



Once you start brewing enough that you have more beer on hand than you can drink the prospect of letting a beer age for 1+ years is not as daunting as you might think.

 

[smellysell]

I have a wild ale culture that is brett-y and has some sort of serious diacetyl-throwing something in it (possible oenococcus?) but it is not sour at all, even after 10 months.

Once you start brewing enough that you have more beer on hand than you can drink the prospect of letting a beer age for 1+ years is not as daunting as you might think.

Pedio throws off a lot of diacetyl, but brett cleans it up usually?

Couldn't agree more with the second statement, I don't even know how much sour beer I have sitting around in fermenters, but it's a lot.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

Pedio throws off a lot of diacetyl, but brett cleans it up usually?

It had a lot of diacetyl but zero sourness. The brett certainly cleaned it up and it has a really good sandalwood sort of flavor to it, but absolutely no lactic acid to be found. That's why I don't believe it's pedio.

 

[smellysell]

It had a lot of diacetyl but zero sourness. The brett certainly cleaned it up and it has a really good sandalwood sort of flavor to it, but absolutely no lactic acid to be found. That's why I don't believe it's pedio.

Weird

 

[Patirck]

OK - So I'm going to do an experiment making up several batches of sour to mix with a 1.032 wheat beer later. Call it the Berlinerwiesse experiment. I'm will create test batches of about .5 - .6 gallons so I have roughly a six pack of each finished product.

I'm going to create a simple wheat wort of about 1.040 for the lacto to do their thing before I mix it with wheat beer made of 60% wheat and 40% pilsner. The lacto portion will be 1/2 gallon of wheat wort using the following methods:

Wort and 1/2 cup uncrushed pilsner

Wort and 2 tbsp whey from organic plain yogurt

wort with wyeast lacto

I'm going to put these in a hot water bath i a cooler and change out the water once or twice a day trying to keep it as close to 115* as I can. I plan on keeping them in there for 4 days but we'll see how each progresses. I have some 1/2 gallon jugs I'm going to use for these three. After they have turned sour, I'll drain them through a cheese cloth to some 60/40 wheat wort and boil for 15 minutes. After the boil and chill, I'm going to put the 60/40 wort and 1/2 of each experimental sour in a glass or plastic fermenter of some kind. This way I can test both wyeast German ale and us-05 to finish the ferment. After a few weeks of when fermentation has stopped, I'll bottle with priming sugar and let it condition.

I'm also going to make a 60/40 wheat beer that is about 1.050 and put both wyeast lacto and yeast in at the same time and another where I put the sacc in first and then after gravity drops to 1.035 or so, I'll add the wyeast lacto.

I'm guessing around 6 weeks before I can crack the first bottle. I should have 8 sets of sours to taste - each should be about 5 or 6 12 oz bottles. I'll try them each once a month or so and see if aging helps.