What might be the cause of this cloudiness?

[ClemTiger0408]

Since I switched to AG brewing about 10 batches ago (BIAB) I have had a hard time with cloudiness in my higher OG (1.050+) beers. I keg all my beers.

The steps I take to minimize cloudiness are: Irish moss during the boil, cheese cloth filter when transferring to keg, and kegging itself.

Below is a picture of recent IPA I made that is the Bells Two Hearted clone recipe from this site. It's easier to see the floaters on the far right side.



It almost looks like dry OxyClean particles that didn't get dissolved (it isn't). This beer has been kegged for 3 weeks and is half gone and still has this cloudiness. What might be causing this?

THEORY: I recently realized a grave error in my brewing in that I was using ENTIRELY RO water with no additives what so ever. Just plain RO water. Could that somehow be the cause of this?

EDIT: pic posted twice


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[hunter_le five]

For starters, I would NOT use cheesecloth to strain the beer.

Have you thought about trying cold crashing and/or gelatin finings?

How long are you letting your beer sit in primary before kegging? Personally I don't even keg my beer until it is clear.

What is your carbonation method? Set-and-forget, or crank-and-shake? How long are you letting your beer sit in the keg before pulling a pint? Given enough time, most beers should clear up in the keg, unless you are disturbing the keg frequently by moving it around.

Edit: I see that you said this beer is 3 weeks in the keg. Have you moved the keg at all? Did you dry hop? Did you get a good hot-break?

Keep in mind any sediment that goes into the keg will sink to the bottom, which is where the dip tube is....

 

[ClemTiger0408]

I have not yet tried using gelatins.

This particular beer was in primary for 4 weeks (I typically do 3).

I am dry hopping in the keg for the first time. But my other IPAs have looked the same when dry hopped in primary.

No keg agitation. I know the dip tube is at the bottom but by half way through the keg I'd imagine what was going to fall out of suspension would have already.

This keg was carbed using set and forget.




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[Yooper]

I have not yet tried using gelatins.

This particular beer was in primary for 4 weeks (I typically do 3).

I am dry hopping in the keg for the first time. But my other IPAs have looked the same when dry hopped in primary.

No keg agitation. I know the dip tube is at the bottom but by half way through the keg I'd imagine what was going to fall out of suspension would have already.

This keg was carbed using set and forget.




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One of the things to consider may be incomplete conversion. Is your wort clear before and after the boil? Do you get a good hot break and cold break? And do you happen to have any mash pH or boil pH readings?

RO water is fine, but you may find that you need to add a bit of calcium to the water to help yeast flocculation. That doesn't look like cloudiness from yeast, though- that looks more like a starch haze or something like that from the mash.

 

[weirdboy]

It is likely introduced by the polyphenols from the hops.

The fact that you correlate it to higher gravity beers makes me suspicious. What else is common about the higher gravity beers? Are they all IPAs or otherwise high-hopped, have fruit, or other stuff added? Do you dry hop the lower gravity beers?


So far as potential remedies, first...try gelatin and cold crashing. If it really is just "higher gravity" beers and no other correlation with hops, etc. then you might consider other possibilities. In addition to poor conversion (you should be able to see/taste this in your wort sample, IMO), yeast health issues. You may be underpitching your batches, for example, but in that case you should also see other signs of poor fermentation, like fruity esters and/or phenolic character in the beer. If you are making mostly IPAs you may not notice that stuff unless you know to look for it, though.


Getting back to the poor conversion question, how does your wort look post-boil? Is it cloudy or clear?

 

[ClemTiger0408]

One of the things to consider may be incomplete conversion. Is your wort clear before and after the boil? Do you get a good hot break and cold break? And do you happen to have any mash pH or boil pH readings?



RO water is fine, but you may find that you need to add a bit of calcium to the water to help yeast flocculation. That doesn't look like cloudiness from yeast, though- that looks more like a starch haze or something like that from the mash.

I've considered the incomplete conversion. This is why I mentioned all RO water. My understanding is to generally assume around 7 ph with RO water. I've done A LOT of reading about water since this brew and I know this ph is way too high.

I mash for 90 minutes and I hit temperatures without issue. So I don't think the LENGTH of mash time or temp would cause a problem but maybe the ph does.

Hot break SEEMS fine but I don't know what I'm looking for. Lots of foam close to boiling before settling. For the cold break, it's the same. Not sure what to look for in a good cold break. I use a wort chiller and get down to pitch temps within 20 minutes. I wouldn't say it looks very clear but I am stirring with the wort chiller constantly so the trub is always mixing.

So I don't know! Other than the ph I'm at a loss! I don't whirlpool and siphon from the kettle to primary, I dump everything in. But from what I read this shouldn't cause a big problem. Especially considering I essentially cold crash in the keg. Ugh!



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[Yooper]

I've considered the incomplete conversion. This is why I mentioned all RO water. My understanding is to generally assume around 7 ph with RO water. I've done A LOT of reading about water since this brew and I know this ph is way too high.

I mash for 90 minutes and I hit temperatures without issue. So I don't think the LENGTH of mash time or temp would cause a problem but maybe the ph does.

Hot break SEEMS fine but I don't know what I'm looking for. Lots of foam close to boiling before settling. For the cold break, it's the same. Not sure what to look for in a good cold break. I use a wort chiller and get down to pitch temps within 20 minutes. I wouldn't say it looks very clear but I am stirring with the wort chiller constantly so the trub is always mixing.

So I don't know! Other than the ph I'm at a loss! I don't whirlpool and siphon from the kettle to primary, I dump everything in. But from what I read this shouldn't cause a big problem. Especially considering I essentially cold crash in the keg. Ugh!



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RO water, due to its lack of alkalinity, is perfect for brewing. But even so, some acid is often needed to ensure a proper mash pH, but of course less than most tap waters.

If your wort is clear, then the resulting beer should be clear. If the wort is clear but the beer is not, it has to be due to yeast haze or dryhops haze. If the wort isn't clear, you probably won't have a clear beer. That could be due to incomplete conversion, mash pH issues, lack of hot or cold break, etc. So the first goal is to have clear wort once the trub settles.

 

[ClemTiger0408]

RO water, due to its lack of alkalinity, is perfect for brewing. But even so, some acid is often needed to ensure a proper mash pH, but of course less than most tap waters.



If your wort is clear, then the resulting beer should be clear. If the wort is clear but the beer is not, it has to be due to yeast haze or dryhops haze. If the wort isn't clear, you probably won't have a clear beer. That could be due to incomplete conversion, mash pH issues, lack of hot or cold break, etc. So the first goal is to have clear wort once the trub settles.

So then I have a few newbie questions then:
1. How do I ensure a good hot break?
2. How do I ensure a good cold break?
3. If I'm at pitching temp should I just allow the beer to sit in the kettle before pitching just to ensure it's clear? I don't use a carboy, I use a bucket so I can't really see.



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[Yooper]

So then I have a few newbie questions then:
1. How do I ensure a good hot break?
2. How do I ensure a good cold break?
3. If I'm at pitching temp should I just allow the beer to sit in the kettle before pitching just to ensure it's clear? I don't use a carboy, I use a bucket so I can't really see.



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1. Ensure a good mash pH, and a good kettle pH and then make sure to get a rocking boil until the hot break. Even then, make sure you have a vigorous boil but you don't have to have the kettle rocking.
2. Same as #1, but use whirlfloc at 15 minutes before the end of the boil
3. You could, but I've noticed that taking a sample and letting it sit in the hydrometer tube will be as clear as the final wort. I don't have a way to separate trub out, since I have a CFC, but the wort is super clear in the hydrometer testing tube in a matter of minutes once the wort is cool.

 

[ClemTiger0408]

1. Ensure a good mash pH, and a good kettle pH and then make sure to get a rocking boil until the hot break. Even then, make sure you have a vigorous boil but you don't have to have the kettle rocking.

2. Same as #1, but use whirlfloc at 15 minutes before the end of the boil

3. You could, but I've noticed that taking a sample and letting it sit in the hydrometer tube will be as clear as the final wort. I don't have a way to separate trub out, since I have a CFC, but the wort is super clear in the hydrometer testing tube in a matter of minutes once the wort is cool.

Thanks for the help. Ever since I switched to AG my beers have been really, just bland. I'd say the flavor is "flat" (obviously not talking carbonation). This strongly leads me to believe I have a water issue.


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[Yooper]

Thanks for the help. Ever since I switched to AG my beers have been really, just bland. I'd say the flavor is "flat" (obviously not talking carbonation). This strongly leads me to believe I have a water issue.


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Yes, me too. "Flat" sounds like maybe very soft water, and if that is the case you are lucky! It's easier to deal with water that needs a few things than water (like mine) that needs dilution or some extraneous measures to get a good water for brewing.

But mash pH is crucial, and it'd be important to find out your water make up, and see if your mash pH and kettle pH are where they should be.

Do you have an easy way to get a water report? If your water supplier can't supply it, sending a water sample to Ward Lab would be a great way to figure out your water. For $26, you can get a household mineral test that is all that brewers need.

 

[ClemTiger0408]

Yes, me too. "Flat" sounds like maybe very soft water, and if that is the case you are lucky! It's easier to deal with water that needs a few things than water (like mine) that needs dilution or some extraneous measures to get a good water for brewing.



But mash pH is crucial, and it'd be important to find out your water make up, and see if your mash pH and kettle pH are where they should be.



Do you have an easy way to get a water report? If your water supplier can't supply it, sending a water sample to Ward Lab would be a great way to figure out your water. For $26, you can get a household mineral test that is all that brewers need.

Well, I actually live in the same town as the person who created Bru'n water. He informed me that our tap water is not suitable for brewing because the municipality softens at the plant, thus high Na. I had been using just plain RO from the grocery store before I spoke with him because actually our water is unbelievably hard. Even with the treatment.

I just ordered the Ward brewers report just to test my home water and see if it is suitable (I assume the high Na would show up in the test results). I know of a local brewery here that does use the local tap. If the tests come back bad then I'll stick with store bought RO and add some acid (and Gypsum for IPA)



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[Yooper]

Well, I actually live in the same town as the person who created Bru'n water. He informed me that our tap water is not suitable for brewing because the municipality softens at the plant, thus high Na. I had been using just plain RO from the grocery store before I spoke with him because actually our water is unbelievably hard. Even with the treatment.

I just ordered the Ward brewers report just to test my home water and see if it is suitable (I assume the high Na would show up in the test results). I know of a local brewery here that does use the local tap. If the tests come back bad then I'll stick with store bought RO and add some acid (and Gypsum for IPA)



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Oh, I'm sure Martin could tell you what the water is, then, and you could just send him a PM on the forum and he'd tell you (or post the query in the "Brew Science" area of the forum). I'm not familiar enough with the water in Indiana to even hazard a guess, but he certainly is!


Are you taking any steps to control mash pH?