What is up with Winemakers superiority to brewers?

[SteveHoward]

It almost sounds to me like you are wanting to argue with someone who is not on the board. But taking it as it is, thinking that you want a discussion on whether or not it is humor, and if it is, why it would be included ...

One thing I notice about humor is that it often PURPOSEFULLY omits facts and distorts some facets or associations to try to bring out a chuckle. In many variations of humor, there is just enough truth in it to draw an identification, then make a sharp turn ... that's what makes it funny to some. (Think about it, can you tell me there are NOT a lot of people who basically pour beer without too much spillage, and drink ... class dismissed? Can you not find people fitting stereotypes around wine where they have to sniff, swirl, swish, etc.? Is the contrast not at least somewhat humorous?) When joking with my daughters as they were growing up, I would often purposefully misunderstand what they said, or take the wrong meaning of a word which changed the sentence ... it made for an opportunity to joke with them. I knew my audience there, and knew it would be fun with them. Of course I had to make myself look dense to joke like that, but it was funny with my audience.

With a particular ethnic group I grew up around, a grand method of joking was to keep a completely straight face, and see how big of a yarn you could spin and get the person to believe it. It was funny when the person believed it. As I understand, a good amount of Native American history in the textbooks is complete BS specifically because of this type of humor.

A lot of humor can be attributed to ignorance. Sometimes the ignorance is real, and sometimes it is feigned, and sometimes, I'm not sure which it is. When people on the west coast make jokes about people in the heartland, and play on stereotypes, of course their jokes don't accurately represent people there. Is the ignorance real? or is it feigned just so they can make a joke because it is funny to their audience? Maybe it is both, it probably depends on who is making the joke.

Sometimes, I see attempts to manipulate disguised as humor. One place I see this used is someone trying to "ridicule into submission" which I see happening most often with political discussions. That way, when it doesn't go over quite the way the joker thought, he can always just say "I was just joking." Everyone there knows that was not what was really being tried, but it gives the person a way out when people don't just go along with him poking fun at their position.

So I read the examples you posted, and I have no emotional investment in the book, nor in winemaking or brewing. I see it as him purposefully playing on stereotypes. He probably doesn't believe the stereotypes himself, but the stereotypes have enough truth to bring some identifying mental image in his audience, so with them, he thinks it is funny. Probably many in his audience also think it is funny. I think if I read it, I would probably get a chuckle out of it, and when I finished, I wouldn't really think it described beer makers or wine makers, and really wouldn't expect anyone reading it to think it did so. It does play on the same thought and stereotypes as is the source of the old addage "Champagne tastes on a beer budget." It would just be a form of humor, and one I wouldn't expect to be offensive with most people.

It's not showing ignorance so much as it is just a type of humor. That's my take on it.

 

[corkybstewart]

How so? I'd like to learn more. The quick glance at the book showed references to expensive wines, but in the end it all seemed like your best shot was having superior grapes, and nothing in the world could save you otherwise.

As said before growing grapes takes a lot of effort-vines need to be pruned constantly to maximize grape production, lots of pest control issues. Then there's the harvest, pressing and fermentation. Then the finings or filtration, racking to barrels for aging, etc. Then when it;'s all done many wines are blended.
For our 20th anniversary we had a party in my wife's village in France. We visited several wineries to choose wine for our party, and tasted dozens of different wines(tough job but it had to be done). In the end we chose 3 wines we liked at a friends winery-one from grapes grown on the hill aged in oak, and the other two came from a batch of grapes grown on the slope near the river, a much more robust wine in general.. He had half that batch in oak, half in chestnut so he blended the three wines to make a truly magnificent wine. This is pretty much out of the scope of practice for 95% of people who make wine at home.

 

[SteveHoward]

If it makes you feel better, though, I found this little gem where I suppose a sake/beer maker is looking down on wine makers:

"Refined." Now that ought to tell the reader something. IT'S NOT
SIMPLE. You want simple; make wine. Get used to it. All grain beer brewing is
not simple either, but if you want to do that you do what it takes.

Source: http://www.designerinlight.com/eckhardt-sake.pdf

Is he serious? Joking? Is it revealing an underlying attitude? Is it necessary to take that tone in the recipe? Should I care?

 

[rycov]

It almost sounds to me like you are wanting to argue with someone who is not on the board. But taking it as it is, thinking that you want a discussion on whether or not it is humor, and if it is, why it would be included ...

One thing I notice about humor is that it often PURPOSEFULLY omits facts and distorts some facets or associations to try to bring out a chuckle. In many variations of humor, there is just enough truth in it to draw an identification, then make a sharp turn ... that's what makes it funny to some. (Think about it, can you tell me there are NOT a lot of people who basically pour beer without too much spillage, and drink ... class dismissed? Can you not find people fitting stereotypes around wine where they have to sniff, swirl, swish, etc.? Is the contrast not at least somewhat humorous?) When joking with my daughters as they were growing up, I would often purposefully misunderstand what they said, or take the wrong meaning of a word which changed the sentence ... it made for an opportunity to joke with them. I knew my audience there, and knew it would be fun with them. Of course I had to make myself look dense to joke like that, but it was funny with my audience.

With a particular ethnic group I grew up around, a grand method of joking was to keep a completely straight face, and see how big of a yarn you could spin and get the person to believe it. It was funny when the person believed it. As I understand, a good amount of Native American history in the textbooks is complete BS specifically because of this type of humor.

A lot of humor can be attributed to ignorance. Sometimes the ignorance is real, and sometimes it is feigned, and sometimes, I'm not sure which it is. When people on the west coast make jokes about people in the heartland, and play on stereotypes, of course their jokes don't accurately represent people there. Is the ignorance real? or is it feigned just so they can make a joke because it is funny to their audience? Maybe it is both, it probably depends on who is making the joke.

Sometimes, I see attempts to manipulate disguised as humor. One place I see this used is someone trying to "ridicule into submission" which I see happening most often with political discussions. That way, when it doesn't go over quite the way the joker thought, he can always just say "I was just joking." Everyone there knows that was not what was really being tried, but it gives the person a way out when people don't just go along with him poking fun at their position.

So I read the examples you posted, and I have no emotional investment in the book, nor in winemaking or brewing. I see it as him purposefully playing on stereotypes. He probably doesn't believe the stereotypes himself, but the stereotypes have enough truth to bring some identifying mental image in his audience, so with them, he thinks it is funny. Probably many in his audience also think it is funny. I think if I read it, I would probably get a chuckle out of it, and when I finished, I wouldn't really think it described beer makers or wine makers, and really wouldn't expect anyone reading it to think it did so. It does play on the same thought and stereotypes as is the source of the old addage "Champagne tastes on a beer budget." It would just be a form of humor, and one I wouldn't expect to be offensive with most people.

It's not showing ignorance so much as it is just a type of humor. That's my take on it.

i like watching people get hurt on youtube. thats a kind of humor right?

 

[SteveHoward]

i like watching people get hurt on youtube. thats a kind of humor right?

It's a type of humor, yes. It's not one I find enjoyable. You can add it to the list of types of humor if you want, but I don't see the example jokes about beer makers being analagous to ******* videos.

I'm not sure what kind of response you want from me beyond that. Since we're talking about people getting hurt, maybe that old snickers commercial where the trainer runs on the field and asks the receiver if he's hurt and he says "It hurts me when they boo?"

 

[rycov]

hahaha, you're unnecessarily long winded. i like you funny word man.

 

[sstan]

Note the officers version of the Swiss Army Knife included a small blade and a corkscrew.

http://www.e-webtechnologies.com/sak/Victorinox_SAK_History_Urs_Wyss_-_Updated_12_FEB_08.pdf

Wine certainly has certain a snob appeal.

 

[SwampassJ]

hahaha, you're unnecessarily long winded. i like you funny word man.

speaking of long winded, did homer get banned from the debate section? He has some built up angst oozing out.

 

[Homercidal]

SteveHoward, you may have a ring of truth there. I accept the fact that there are many humourous qualities in the stereotypical homebrewer. I don't think that the choice of "jokes" given in the book hit on any of them.

Fact is, the person likely to pick up a book entitled, "Winemaking for Dummies" is likely going to be the average Joe who has some grapes or other fruit available and likes a decent low-priced wine. Maybe he's a person who just HAS to have another hobby. Yet the book's tone is set for a completely different person.

Seeing that section in the chapter list was a bit exciting. I thought, "Here we go! I can compare the differences in the process of making wine with the already known process of making beer!" That would be very helpful, I think, to a person like me.

Imagine my disappointment to find it an unfunny poke at ignorant redneck fratboy types (ironic considering the amount of ignorance about brewers and craft beer enthusiasts).

If the comparison was made between wine drinkers and BMC drinkers, then at least some of the jokes would be understandable and perhaps even funny. Hell, if the jokes were presented in a better fashion, some of them might have been at least chuckle inducing.

You are right. My first impulse was to hunt down the author and demand an apology! But since I couldn't find his email address, and I'm too lazy to sign up for a winemaking forum and start my diatribe there, I defaulted to posting here.

In seriousness, the reason I posted here was to get a decent discussion going on the "actual" differences, or for possible reasons a winemaker might present such a series of bad jokes in a winemaker's book, when there is real potential for the readers to form a bond with brewers.

Because I suspect that there is a lot more in common between the two, than there are differences.

In a way, maybe I'm put out by the equating home brewers to ignorant drunken fratboy rednecks simply because we both enjoy a beverage called "BEER". I think jokes could have been made that would have been both funnier and also more constructive.

How about a discussion on whether wine actually IS a better product than beer?

 

[Homercidal]

speaking of long winded, did homer get banned from the debate section? He has some built up angst oozing out.

Must be my time of the month. Hang in there, only 2 more days!

 

[tchuklobrau]

lol i like your enthusiasm homer, however how can you have a discussion whether or not whine actually is a better product. it will be discussion based on opinion purely and therefore there can be no wrong answer(well at east not if they agree with me ).

 

[Homercidal]

lol i like your enthusiasm homer, however how can you have a discussion whether or not whine actually is a better product. it will be discussion based on opinion purely and therefore there can be no wrong answer(well at east not if they agree with me ).

It's no fair jumping through the finish line without running the race!

 

[rycov]

speaking of long winded, did homer get banned from the debate section? He has some built up angst oozing out.

haha. he does seem a little more on edge than usual. (like he said, time of month. i had mine last week.... i'm still spotting here and there )

 

[RyboFlav]

 

[rycov]

nice!

 

[SteveHoward]

hahaha, you're unnecessarily long winded. i like you funny word man.

Oh, gotcha ... I must have a brewer trying to keep up with all of that. I'll keep the word count down just for you .

 

[Brewkowski]

The wine industry has made it's reputation off of being more holier than thou. French wines were all the rage until California was able to figure it out. It's always been about picking up on the terroir and the hidden and forward notes of the wine. When was the last time you were asked if you could tell your malt was grown in Wisconsin during a drought? I often find "wine people" a little closed minded compared to brewers, alot of wine drinkers wouldn't consider country wines or Am-French hybrids good enough to drink since they're not rated by Robert Parker. Maybe it's our desire to be European? Sommelier's have been around forever, but it's only recently that you can find the same in the beer industry.
To me brewers are much more creative and more cutting edge, where as wine makers are more reserved and traditional. Since it's wine making for dummies, I'm sure they're not dealing with the agricultural side of things, he's just being a punk.

 

[Jacob_Marley]

I think part of it is that wine has inherited the French attitude.
I remember it well when the California vintners "invaded" French wine competition in the early 1970's. Oooohh lot's of angry Frenchmen.
I think too, the fact that you can spend $50 to $100 on a bottle of wine but would be hard pressed to find a similar bottle beer over about $15 adds to the tendency toward exclusivity.
This is all quite different than the relative intricacies of winemaking verses brewing, which I think have shown themselves to be brothers (er, sisters?).

 

[rycov]

Oh, gotcha ... I must have a brewer trying to keep up with all of that. I'll keep the word count down just for you .

'preciate it. that'll help me stay in the conversation.

 

[Homercidal]

Oh, wait. So this is all about wine being a French entity! No wonder it irks me so!

I'm basically a German by blood ancestry. Therefore it's only natural that I fight against something that is so french.

There was once a study done on how music can affect people's moods. During the study they placed all French wines on one side of an aisle, and on the other, German wines.

They discovered that when they played French music over the PA, more people purchased French wine.

But they found that when they played German music over the loudspeakers, more people attacked the French wine.

 

[Jacob_Marley]

Oh, wait. So this is all about wine being a French entity! No wonder it irks me so!

I'm basically a German by blood ancestry. Therefore it's only natural that I fight against something that is so french.

There was once a study done on how music can affect people's moods. During the study they placed all French wines on one side of an aisle, and on the other, German wines.

They discovered that when they played French music over the PA, more people purchased French wine.

But they found that when they played German music over the loudspeakers, more people attacked the French wine.

Yes, yes, I think I’ve heard of that study! It was done in Alsace.
And as I recall it was said that those that purchased the french wine drank it and left the bottle, unwashed exhausted and unsatisfied, in the gutter ... whereas when the German Music was played, those customers who annexed the french isles brought cleanliness, progress and order to the inventory.

 

[tchuklobrau]

not sure about the drought but im pretty sure by the axtra tsate from my hops that the neighbors dog eats 2 much red meat lol sry had to

 

[Brewkowski]

not sure about the drought but im pretty sure by the axtra tsate from my hops that the neighbors dog eats 2 much red meat lol sry had to

In this Imperial IPA do I detect notes of grapfruit, lemon zest, and orange with hints of red meat tainted dung?

 

[tchuklobrau]

sorry that was a poor attempt at humor. the point however was that weather and draught(and it was the dog lifting his leg not dung) affect beer making ingredients just as much.

 

[Brewkowski]

ha, I know what you mean. Everything affects the nature of a fruiting plants, the type of fertilizer, amount of rain, sun or shade, etc. I just think that wine drinkers do focus more on that than brewers. It seems that the major contributing factors of wine depend on the stages before the must is prepared or fermented (on the vine or crushing) where as beer maybe depends more on the process (mashing/boiling/fermentation)? Granted, in either case if you have a poor process in wine making or start with bad grain for brewing it will probably not turn out well.

 

[corkybstewart]

There is another difference-that malted barley you're mashing probably comes from multiple sources around North America and is a blend. Small winemakers can usually point to the hill or valley the grapes for any particular wine came from weather has a much bigger impact on the quality of grape juice than it has on barley. Big wineries have to buy grapes from multiple sources so weather differences even out more than for the small guys.
Most of my wine knowledge comes from winemakers in my wife's village outside of Chinon France. They typically have less than 100 acres of grapes and do all the work themselves. I guess things are done differently at the big Napa Valley vineyards but I have no firsthand knowledge. I also have a BIL who is a grain farmer there and he's been planting and harvesting more 2 row for beer over the past 15 years. He not only farms his own acreage but he leases land and has several combines for contract harvesting. So he harvests and stores barley for farmers all over that region-all mixed together in his silos.

 

[DoctorCAD]

Because WE ARE BETTER, that's why.

 

[badmajon]

Before I say this let me start out by saying I'm a beer brewer, and I love beer in general way more than I love wine (although, I can't get drunk on beer and I leave that to wine).

However, throughout history, wine has always been seen as the more sophisticated drink. It was that way in ancient Babylon, was that way with the Greeks (who wouldn't drink beer b/c it was seen as barbaric but always watered down their wine) and the Romans were the same way, and that attitude continues up to the modern times.

Why? Because wine is far more expensive to produce and the land on which it grows is far more limited and select. You can grow grains of some sort just about anywhere- beer is inherently democratic. with wine There's TERROIR to think about. Aside from a few lambics, I can't see the same in beer.

So anyway, to make a really long story short, wine people (have always) tended to have money and with money comes culture and a bit of snobbery.

If you are that curious, check out "a history of the world in 6 glasses"

 

[Atek]

To the OP, I know it seems like you were ranting about some trivial, thoughtless jokes, and perhaps you were. I just wanted to say thank you for doing so. It sparked a very interesting conversation and was a good read.

 

[Homercidal]

Well, I guess I'm a wine snob now. I pitched yeast on 6 gallons of grape juice last week and am looking to move some mead (if it's any good) and rack the wine into my carboy. I hope it turns out, although I'll probably end up giving most of it away next year.