What is up with Winemakers superiority to brewers?

[jgln]

I'm not sure where/when you're talking about. Most everyone in Europe survived on beer for a very, very long time. Are you talking about American history?

I don't think I could find any facts in history books and don't feel like looking, but I do feel that is the way it is seen. Just my opinion of my 51+ years on this earth that it has always seemed that way. Why do you think the op noticed it too? Yeah, I guess you could say in my lifetime, I was not around many years ago. I am just going by my observations of some wine drinkers I have met and observed in my lifetime. I have never been to Europe, so yes maybe just here, I don't know.

Before any wine drinkers jump on me, remember I said some. I drink both but mostly beer.

 

[Hoodweisen]

Here in the ozarks Moonshine is king and if you make anything else your a pansy. Sadly im a pansy.

 

[bigbeergeek]

Here in the ozarks Moonshine is king and if you make anything else your a pansy. Sadly im a pansy.

Mmm. Distilled, fermented sugar water. The white lightning!

 

[jgln]

I'm not sure where/when you're talking about. Most everyone in Europe survived on beer for a very, very long time. Are you talking about American history?

Thought this kind of amusing, not sure where it came from exactly. Not sure I buy it but you can see where some associate wine drinkers as being superior in several ways. Here, they claim wine drinkers are smarter. Again, I think some people think if they drink wine they ARE superior even if they are not, therefore =snobs.

+++++++++++++++++

Aug 23, 2001 - A study that started out trying to explain the apparent health benefits of drinking red wine suggests that wine drinkers could be smarter than beer drinkers and better adjusted.
The report published in the Archives of Internal Medicine confirms that moderate wine drinkers experience better overall health than either abstainers or those who choose other alcoholic beverages. The conventional view, associated with the now famous French Paradox, is that red wine contains compounds that raise good cholesterol levels and reduce the blood's tendency to clot, promoting overall cardiac health.
However, the researchers conclude, it may not be ingredients in the wine itself. They argue that it's the higher socioeconomic status, elevated IQ, and enhanced personality function of average wine-drinkers that are the probable sources of the good health and comparative longevity they enjoy.
They based their conclusion on data from the Copenhagen City Heart Study, which began tracking changes in health after Denmark joined the European Union in 1973. By tradition a beer-drinking people, the Danes migrated gradually toward wine over the next 25 years. By the 1990s, marked differences could already be observed between wine- and beer-drinking segments of the population.
For example, on tests designed to measure personality function, psychiatric symptoms, and health-related behaviors, wine drinkers routinely outscored beer drinkers, showing fewer neurotic tendencies, and less inclination to anxiety, alcohol abuse, and smoking. Beer drinkers of both sexes had consistently lower IQ scores than wine drinkers. Males who drank beer only averaged 95.2, while wine drinkers scored 113.2.
In light of the strong links already established between intelligence, social status, and psychological well-being, the researchers concluded, the medical benefits associated with wine drinking "are not likely due to the direct physiological effects of the beverage itself."

 

[Special Hops]

Saying there are only 2 types of beer (lager & ale) is like saying there are only 2 types of wine ( red & white).

 

[j1laskey]

I pee standing up, and I make beer.

 

[Homercidal]

I think to be fair to the author, I must point out that is was not an offhand joking comment (IMO). It was a list of like 10 reasons winemakers are better than brewers, or wine is better than beer. I think that is what gets my goat. Why do this?

I think wine is noted as being "better" simply because it's more expensive to make. Think about it.

Grain is abundant. Grapes not as much so. Therefore, the finest wines went to the people who could pay the most. The nobility. It's not so different from beer, where the nobles got the strongest beer, and the lower classes got the 3rd runnings.

It's even been considered that most of the references in the bible to wine, were originally references to beer. The reasoning is that grain grows great in biblical areas, and grapes grow great in Italy. During the rewriting of the Bible, the people in Rome changed the wording to indicate wine, to make the passages seem "better". Since wine is of a more suitable drink. Looking at the passages it's not hard to wonder where all of those grapes came from. Supposedly most of it came from the Romans, who brought it with them and very likely were the ones who drank most of it.

A "fine" wine may be hard to make, and arguably much harder to make than a fine beer. I don't dispute that. But much of it is out of your control. And to be clear I am referencing the large number of Home Winemakers, not the large corporations who control their own vineyards. I am guessing that a lot of the home winemakers aren't making "fine" wines with grapes grown in their own yards. They are probably making passable wine made from their own fruits, or from grapes bought from somewhere else, or from concentrate or juice. So my point is that making wine is not that hard. At least as far as a person making it has the ability to manage the final product.

The bottom line to me is that it comes across as winedrinkers and winemakers are better people than beer drinkers and brewers.

The fact is, is all come down to price and class. A fine wine is more expensive than a fine beer. Granted. But that doesn't necessarily make it a BETTER product. There are plenty of very expensive hand-built exotic cars that can outperform any lower priced mid-sized sedan. But the cost doesn't mean that it will last longer, or have fewer breakdowns per mile. It's just rarer.

I just found the whole section of comparison unnecessary and inflammatory. He tries to cover himself by saying that plenty of winemakers are drinking beer while working with their grapes and even does state that beer drinkers have more fun. But it feels to me as if he had all of these zingers lined up and then kind of hangs his head and admits that even though brewers are lower class people, they can dance better...

Not just that, though. In actuality he gives false information about brewers and beermaking while giving his so-called humour.

I would rather have seen a section comparing the two hobbies instead of contrasting them. I'd rather have seen a brothership instead of a battleship. There are more things in common between the two hobbies than there are differences (when FACTS are admitted).

Maybe he needs to come across as a jerk in order to be taken seriously by people who want to learn how to make wine?

I was not impressed with the book as much as I am impressed with the Homebrewing for Dummies book. His choice of topic is strictly Red and White Wines, with anything else kind of being a afterthought. I glossed over the technical section because I really needed to find out what to do with my grapes before they start rotting. Perhaps there is some good info in there. But overall, the book seemed like a wine snobs answer to learning how to make wine, not a comprehensive book for the average person to make wine at home. I think it's geared toward those who have started going to fancy wine tastings, and kind of got hooked on hanging with the fancy types with tall noses and want to impress their new fancy friends than the average person.

Maybe that's just what the view looks like from down here.

 

[Homercidal]

Dang, that is one long post!

Also, if anyone is interested, I can help you find the book online. I can even PM or email that section if you really want to judge for yourself. I'd hate to give people the wrong impression, and would prefer they make up their own minds if they care.

 

[huesmann]

I know I don't "get" wine. I don't care for the fruity, dry, tart flavors. I can't sense the subtle nuances that define a <insert hoity toity wine name here>. But I don't discourage people from winemaking, or poo poo the hobby or connoisseurs of fine wine.

Hey, I don't care for the bitter, skanky flavors I taste in beer. But I don't care if beer people like it, or if brewers like to make their own.

 

[CreamyGoodness]

There is obviously only one solution to huesmann and homercidal's problems respectively... start making and drinking beerwine. Or winebeer. You know, mix them both in one big jug...

Sorry guys Im overtired.

 

[SteveHoward]

If it really bothers you ... It's just another of those examples of that old addage: Opionions are like buttholes, everyone has one, and it usually stinks. Why do they come to the conclusions and develop the opinions they do? I don't know ... but they always seem to have an opinion, and that opinion seems to always cast themselves, and what they like in a good light. Sometimes, they feel a need to contrast it with something else ... it's just people. I can't change them, and I don't usually worry about them.

If I was strictly a beer maker, I wouldn't let his opinion affect what I liked to do. But I might want to make wine much like you do.

Personally, I like many types of wines, but I can't claim to be sophisticated about it at all. I know the difference between dry and sweet, sparkling and flat, red and white etc, but if you want someone to tell you the difference between years or give flower commentary about balance, bouquet, body weight, etc. I'm not your guy. I like wine, though.

I agree with Tom T. Hall here, too:

I like beer. I know the difference between light and dark, have a definite preference for dark, but will drink bud light if that's all that's there. I have a few brands I like, loved trying the local microbrews when I travelled (usually chose a beer because of an interesting name at those). But again, if you want someone who can give flowery poetry about the beer, or point out subtle differences in different batches, I'm not your guy.

I also like to make things. So when I got off the road and needed to settle down, I needed to start making things to occupy my mind and hands in idle times. What better to make than things I like the way I like wine or beer? Since it was blackberry season at the time I had that epiphany, what better to start with than blackberry wine. I love apples, and apple season made me think of cider. Beer is definitely in the queue. If someone wants to enjoy it with me, then great, I want to enjoy it with them. If someone doesn't like it, then tough, I don't care. I don't have the time to worry about pleasing them. I'm going to enjoy what I enjoy.

 

[rniles]

Is the message from Patterson simply that he thinks putting down brewers, even in jest, will sell more books? What's in it for him or the hobby? Maybe he's just that ignorant? I can't believe it. Surely he has gained some amount of craft beer knowledge in his years of winemaking.

What is up with that?

If he has them in a joke section, take them as they are and leave them as jokes. It's like Apple geeks poking at PC geeks. Or Honda riders making fun of Harley riders.

Just just plain fun and you gotta be able to laugh at yourself sometimes.

 

[Vinny57]

Creamygoodness isn't that just champagne or some other sparkling wine

 

[Homercidal]

If he has them in a joke section, take them as they are and leave them as jokes. It's like Apple geeks poking at PC geeks. Or Honda riders making fun of Harley riders.

Just just plain fun and you gotta be able to laugh at yourself sometimes.

I'm a great fan of poking fun at yourself. If it came with a wink and a smile I could agree. But in this case (to me) it not only comes off as arrogant and holier than thou, it's plain wrong in several instances.

I'm not sure it helps to put the book in a good light. As a casual winemaker (I'm only doing it because I know someone who would have let the grapes rot on the vine) I might be turned off by that attitude.

I'm also very aware that I could be considered a Beer Snob by people who choose their beer because it's on sale or because their father drank it (or because that beer had the funniest commercial that week). Fact is, I choose my beer based on what sounds good to me at that time. I know enough about craft beer to know what styles I don't like and what styles would taste best with my food (according to the winemaker book, any beer goes with any food. Because only WINE could adequately be paired with food in a meaningful way).

It's like the author has no knowledge of beer outside of the commercials he sees during the football games (Ooops, I mean the Westminster Kennel Club)

Quote:
If you’re an ale fan, you’ll probably like it just fine with a rib eye steak, filet of sole, or celery sticks and onion-soup dip. And if you’re in a lager mood, you won’t lose much sleep about whether it goes with fried chicken or Thai curry.

So there is only Ale and Lager? He broadly defines beer by it's two major yeast strains, not even mentioning that as funny as this supposed joke is, there are literally dozens of identifiable styles of beer. Naming the 2 yeast types does practically nothing for identifying flavors or other characteristics which would help in pairing a beer with fine dining (or a burger).

Error of omission.

He also points out to the requirement of an "...enormous wine education industry, full of beginner and advanced classes... to understand the terms well enough to properly enjoy wine.

Whereas with beer: beer involves familiarity with basic refrigerator operation; knowledge of bottle cap removal — by twisting and church key; ability to pour without (much) spilling; and a knack for locating your own mouth. Class dismissed.

Thank you, Sir, may I have another! This passage is not only poking fun at the neanderthal beer drinkers, but is scary enough to prevent any casual wine drinker from ever wanting to attend an event where the slightest misstep could cause them to tumble several rungs down the social ladder!

 

[ACbrewer]

The only way to be more superiour to you AC is to do something illegal in the USA

Since I ferment in my basement I have a hard time looking down on anybody. Mostly I would have to look up. Also I find that beer brewing (not to be confused with malting and farming) all takes place at the boil, but wine making (again not to be confused with farming) takes place all through fermentation.

I find each has its own challenges. My biggest problem is I expect a flavor X get a great drink with flavor Y and everyone goes 'that's pretty good' and I'm like "but it is not what I expected"

 

[ericd]

Home winemaking is a ****ing joke. All the skill in winemaking is growing the grapes.

 

[gregbathurst]

One point about wine is that there is such a huge difference between good and poor wine (leaving aside faults and infections). With beer made from mashed grain, once you have the hang of it you are pretty much guaranteed a nice drink unless you try to trick it up, but its much easier to make a poor wine even with a lot of experience. Especially with white wine the process is very straight forward, just press the juice and ferment, but there is a lot of variation in the final product.

 

[SwampassJ]

The book has the words "for dummies" in the title and this is getting to you? Please tell me this is a legal download at least.

 

[huesmann]

Someone has his panties in a bunch...

 

[Homercidal]

The book has the words "for dummies" in the title and this is getting to you? Please tell me this is a legal download at least.

What does the title have to do with it? I have read the Homebrewing for Dummies and thought it was a very good book for homebrewers of any level.

Interestingly, a lady at work brought in her book on winemaking. It's probably a 15 page pamphlet and I found it had more useful information on getting started.

I'd like to tell you it's a legal download, but all I can say is I'm glad I didn't waste my money on this. The title should have been, almost everything you need to know to become a pretentious home winemaker.

 

[CreamyGoodness]

Gosh, I got involved in this hobby under the pretense of someday getting pretentious...

 

[Homercidal]

Someone has his panties in a bunch...

Don't feel like participating in a real discussion?

I understand this isn't Israel vs Palestine or anything, but how about a bit of healthy discussion?

 

[Homercidal]

Gosh, I got involved in this hobby under the pretense of someday geting pretentious...

I didn't say you did, or anybody else on this forum. My comment was regarding the tone of the book. Have you read it? Instead of the basics of making all kinds of wines at home, it really seems like it's written for people who want to start their own winery so their friends can be jealous.

From the skimming I did, it looks like it barely touches on anything other than the grape wine process. It didn't seem to get too in depth about the processes.

Maybe I should skim through it again today if I have time. It just seemed like the first time I read it he spent a lot of time talking about wines I'd never heard of (odd considering the book is for dummies, so you'd think he would explain it in a childlike fashion for people like me).

 

[CreamyGoodness]

Oh gosh Homercidal, I was trying hard to make people laugh and failed miserably. I have a quirky (often moronic) sense of humor. I wasn't trying to imply anyone said anything in this thread I took any umbrage to.

In seriousness, the fact that he posted those jokes in a WINEMAKER's book leads me to believe he did intend some edge to it. If he was just trying to be funny he would have told those jokes amongst beer brewers and gave a couple friendly elbows to the ribs and a few "nah Im just teasing"ings. Yknow? Basically I more or less agree with you.

 

[corkybstewart]

I didn't read the whole thread, but here is my take on it.

I am a professional winemaker. Making good wine is extremely difficult compared to beer. Just choosing when to harvest your grapes is more difficult than making beer. Then you add in farming, actually making the wine, aging it, and blending it.

My French wife and I got into a heated argument about this when I told her "that on a homebrewing or wine making level wine is much easier than beer". The average home wine maker basically buys grape juice and adds yeast, waits a while and he has cheap wine. But on the professional "start to finish" level I'd agree that wine is more complicated.

 

[rycov]

beer is easier to make because men are easier to please....



(j/k )

 

[Homercidal]

Oh gosh Homercidal, I was trying hard to make people laugh and failed miserably. I have a quirky (often moronic) sense of humor. I wasn't trying to imply anyone said anything in this thread I took any umbrage to.

In seriousness, the fact that he posted those jokes in a WINEMAKER's book leads me to believe he did intend some edge to it. If he was just trying to be funny he would have told those jokes amongst beer brewers and gave a couple friendly elbows to the ribs and a few "nah Im just teasing"ings. Yknow? Basically I more or less agree with you.

Maybe I need to cut back on the coffee in the mornings. All I was looking for with this thread was an informed discussion on the jokes, and how it relates to the perceptions of brewers and winemakers.

I know more than a couple of people who make their own wine and have for years. None of them could be accused of having a snob image. Far from it. Generally they are as funloving and down to earth as anyone I know who brews.

Maybe I got caught off guard by the tone of the book. I thought wine snobbery was relegated to the upper class elite. I didn't expect to see it in such force in a book on basic winemaking. Frankly, I had hoped to see more information on table wines or country wines. Most of the book seemed geared towards high end expensive varieties.

 

[Homercidal]

My French wife and I got into a heated argument about this when I told her "that on a homebrewing or wine making level wine is much easier than beer". The average home wine maker basically buys grape juice and adds yeast, waits a while and he has cheap wine. But on the professional "start to finish" level I'd agree that wine is more complicated.

How so? I'd like to learn more. The quick glance at the book showed references to expensive wines, but in the end it all seemed like your best shot was having superior grapes, and nothing in the world could save you otherwise.

 

[tchuklobrau]

Been making beer for almost 6 years, just started making wine this summer. as a process i find wine to be profoundly easier. 6g of wine takes me 2-3 hours start to finish on the 1st day(all work involved leading up to yeast pitch including pressing my fruit) 5-6g of beer is an 8 hour day start to finish. the problem is there is no real way to compair. other than pitching the yeast the processes differ so much its not fair for anyone to say one is easier than the other. groing all ingredients for either beer or wine only ensures fressness. b oth are subject to the fancy of mother nature. yes barley is new plant each year same factors apply as with fruit that control proteins and such.

In the end ease is in the eye of the maker. for me and my life at the moment wine is way easier because of the set it and forget it factor. I have been able to squeeze 2 wine making sessions in where i cannot even consider beer. I am sure true professionals on either spectrum will not point fingers at each other and say a single bad word. It takes dedication and skill and knowledge and either is easily f ed up.

 

[GodsStepBrother]

I remember when I was working as a chief; I saw my job as feeding shallow people that could afford good ingredients, and didn&#8217;t even realize what they were eating half the time. The executive chief would give us amazing pieces of meat, that you would have to be a real fool to f**** them up. I mean really, the true art form is in making something amazing from the normal cheap ingredients. Look at any amazing chief and they revel on the common foods, they travel and spend most of there time eating in markets, and just what normal people eat. That is where ingenuity is, the guy that invented menudo, the sausage makers, these people are the real artist the one who take a bland ingredient and make something spectacular with it.

I have always seen beer in this respect. Grapes are already good as it is; it is hard to mess that up (though possible). You can really just squeeze grapes and get something drinkable at the bare minimum. Barely is really a nasty little grain when you look at it. It is not very suited for bread, takes a lot of work to harvest, and is really used to feed cows more than anything (besides beer). The process and genius it took to actually make beer to me is amazing. I always have more respect for a chief who makes a good head cheese, than one that can make a perfect steak. In my opinion this statement the author made is a sign of desperation steaming from the author&#8217;s ignorance.