What is this citrus vinegar twang in my 1st & 2nd beers?

[fizzix]

My first beer is an extract kit (Brewers Best Red Ale). I followed the instructions to a 'T', hit the numbers, and I am meticulous in Star-San sanitization.

Second beer is Bee Cave Haus Pale Ale (all-grain) from the recipes forum here. Again hit the numbers and maintained the same religious sanitation fervor.

Both have this citrus taste as if lemon juice was mixed with a little vinegar. The extract kit is overwhelming where the Bee Cave grain just has a hint.

Acetobacter is taking the blame from everyone I talk to and every search made, but I just can't believe I can be any cleaner! I mean I soak EVERYTHING in Star-San that even gets close. Spray bucket lids, hands, and everything else that doesn't fit in the Star-San bucket.

The worts were boiled in a stainless steel 10-gallon kettle. Then the kettle is cooled in a giant ice tub. Then I pour from the stainless into a new, unscratched plastic ferment/bottling bucket. There it's aerated and covered tightly and a 3-piece airlock full of Star-San is installed.

They each had lively bubbler activity and I had let them go for 3 weeks before bottling. Bottle conditioning each took another 3 weeks.

But there's that citrus vinegar!

I can't figure what the common fault is, but if it IS acetobacter, I must be living in the motherlode nest of super-powered nasties.

Is there anything else that causes this lemon juice & vinegar off-flavor?

Thank you for your time.

 

[RM-MN]

Each of us perceive different flavors with our mouths but I'll be placing a bet that you don't have acetobacter in your beer. I think it is more likely acetaldehyde, one of the intermediate compounds of making beer. The yeast usually clean this up with some time and at the phase of fermentation where they clean this up they like it warmer. Try warming the beer to the mid to upper 70's for a few days.

 

[seatazzz]

I too think you're tasting "green" or not quite finished beer. Acetaldehyde can have a "green apple" or slightly sour flavor. Your yeast just need some more time to clean that up. Once they've chowed down on all of the readily available sugar, they will kick back and start looking for leftovers they can munch down on, and acetaldehyde is one of them...kinda like week-old dried out cold pizza when you get up at 3 in the morning with the munchies and somebody ate all of the Capn Crunch you really wanted.

 

[fizzix]

The more I think about it, you guys may be right that it's more a sour green apple flavor. It is very tart.
I see there are things to do to reduce acetaldehyde: Try not to over pitch the yeast, make sure to aerate enough before pitching, keep the fermentation temps lower, and give the yeast time to clean up (which I thought 3 weeks would do). Then warm it up.

I try to hold off asking questions about every damn little thing, and research for myself. But this time I was searching & asking others about the wrong fault! The knowledge here blows me away. Thanks for setting me straight.

 

[RM-MN]

The more I think about it, you guys may be right that it's more a sour green apple flavor. It is very tart.
I see there are things to do to reduce acetaldehyde: Try not to over pitch the yeast, make sure to aerate enough before pitching, keep the fermentation temps lower, and give the yeast time to clean up (which I thought 3 weeks would do). Then warm it up.

I try to hold off asking questions about every damn little thing, and research for myself. But this time I was searching & asking others about the wrong fault! The knowledge here blows me away. Thanks for setting me straight.

What you wrote may not have been exactly what you meant but it sounds like you kept it cool for the duration of the 3 weeks and then warmed it. Ales only need cooled during the active part of the fermentation, about 3 or 4 days. After that letting them warm will encourage the yeast to do the cleanup of the intermediate products of the fermentation. That should only take another day or 2. After that, the yeast begin clumping together (floculating) and will settle out. I leave mine at room temp for another week or 2 to let the yeast settle but you can speed this up by cooling the beer (cold crashing).

http://www.brewgeeks.com/the-life-cycle-of-yeast.html

 

[ESBrewer]

You also need to consider the oxygen. Pay attention to the aeration of the wort prior to pitching (=aerate well) and when the fermentation has finished, do not open the lid of the bucket to introduce air into the headspace for extended periods. Make sure that the lid of the bucket is not leaking or you may get oxidation during the extended 3 week period (you could also move forward faster, I think). Also, when bottling, avoid all splashing and don't leave excessive head space in the bottles. Oxidation of alcohol is one way how the acetaldehyde (even vinegar) can get in your beer and it will also encourage the acetobacter. During the fermentation, if you can control the temperature, it may be a good idea to start on the low side of the yeast temp range and the let it warm up a bit when you are halfway through the fermentation. This may encourage the yeast and fermentation to finish effectively - something that is important for removal of intermediate compounds such as acetaldehyde that tend to be consumed by yeast during / at the end of the fermentation. Also make sure that the actual temperature inside the bucket is correct - the fermentation itself produces heat and the fermentation tends to run at higher temp than the ambient. What is the yeast that you are using in these recipes?

 

[fizzix]

Hello, ESBrewer. Nottingham in both beers.
One package in the red extract, and used 2 in the (subtler tart) Bee Cave Ale.

 

[ESBrewer]

I think Nottingham itself should be fine, given that the overall fermentation temperature is not too high. Something that seems to increase acetaldehyde production during fermentation. It should be a quite vigorously fermenting strain (typical for many British ale yeasts) and when the amount of yeast and temperature are fine, it can produce clean beer quite rapidly. I am mainly using wyeast 1968 liquid strain and the fermentation (in cool water bath) tends to finish around day 4-5. Then I give it two or three more days at my RT, on the yeast cake to reduce off flavors such as diacetyl and then I start to drop the yeast and move forward with a clean tasting beer. But I also noticed some off tastes in my first two batches, either because of somewhat improper temperatures or the high amount of trub in fermenter, or because I opened it up a bit during the process. So I am sure you can find out what is going wrong here. I would check the temperature, bucket lid and airlock fittings and make sure not to introduce a lot of air to the bucket by any other means (especially post fermentation).

 

[fizzix]

Two different beers down, and each have that green apple vinegar like I've posted.
This 3rd (Lawnmower Blonde Ale from the recipe section) was bottled today,
and I took a good sample to see if that gawdawful flavor was present --NO!

The difference was I made this with bottled water instead of tap.
Now at least I can determine if the flavor arises after bottling or not. Tap or not.
My intention is to taste 1 bottle in 2 weeks and see if it's there.
Looks so far like my tap water just sucks.

Will post again in 2 weeks, and thanks for all the input and suggestions.

I really want to do this, and I read this forum voraciously. Something has to change this rotten beer!

 

[DownstairsBrewing]

You should ask your municipal water authority for their water report so you can start to understand that possibility.

 

[RM-MN]

Two different beers down, and each have that green apple vinegar like I've posted.
This 3rd (Lawnmower Blonde Ale from the recipe section) was bottled today,
and I took a good sample to see if that gawdawful flavor was present --NO!

The difference was I made this with bottled water instead of tap.
Now at least I can determine if the flavor arises after bottling or not. Tap or not.
My intention is to taste 1 bottle in 2 weeks and see if it's there.
Looks so far like my tap water just sucks.

Will post again in 2 weeks, and thanks for all the input and suggestions.

I really want to do this, and I read this forum voraciously. Something has to change this rotten beer!

That may be the case where the tap water gives you strange flavors as water makes up such a huge part of beer but green apple flavor is usually just an intermediate compound (acetaldehyde)that the yeast should be able to clean up, even in the bottle. If you kept the bottles of the first two batches warm for the past 2 weeks, chill a couple for at least 24 hours and sample them again. If the flavor persists and the third batch does not get it the water may be to blame.

 

[Lefou]

I've found some extra time bottle carbing doesn't hurt.
After a few experiences using filtered house tap water with extract and using tap water for all grain, I switched to "soft" bottled water treated with salts.
Now my beer is much better.

 

[fizzix]

Here's my water report. I have no idea what I'm looking at, and have you tried searching here for an ideal profile?
Almost too much to wade through, and I'm just hanging.
I don't expect anyone to give me a step by step review, but is there anything that stands out and is fixable?
The bottled water is cheap, and I will stick with that unless someone sees a fix here:

 

[Lefou]

We're typically looking for specific levels of ions that influence pH, alkalinity, and hardness of the water.
Calcium, magnesium, sodium, iron or manganese. Chloride, sulfate, sulfides, carbonate, and bicarbonate (HCO3) will be what you're mainly concerned with when getting brew water profiles sorted out.

 

[DownstairsBrewing]

The chloramines are fairly high, nearly 3, so at least using Campden tablets (sodium metabisulphite) to clear it out is a good idea. If it is the 'green apple' taste of acetaldehyde, it may be a matter of the yeast struggling to break it all down in the sequence it would with softer water. But my guess is that is something else related to that chloramine level. Yeast can sort of struggle their way through chloramines, eventually breaking it down too, but in so doing they produce chlorophenols. Depending on the balance, we taste chlorphenols as 'plastic', also the 'band-aid' taste, pr sharp, chemical. We are also unfortunately good at tasting them.

Compounding it is that the yeast will tend to work their way through the chloramine before getting to the acetaldehyde (apparently somewhat parallel, but acetaldehyde will finish later)., so you could be tasting both together.

A water filtration system that clears the chloramines out is not a massive purchase.

 

[flars]

I'm not the expert on describing off flavors but the chloramine stands out in the water report. Chloramine will always contribute to off flavors that are noticeable in some styles of beer. Switch to RO water for your next brews to eliminate water as a source of the problem.

Off flavors can also develop from under pitching yeast either in volume or mishandling.

Your sanitation may be very good but is your equipment clean before you sanitize? Sanitizers work on the surface. They don't penetrate dried gunk on any of the equipment used post boil. Are your bottles spotless?

 

[fizzix]

Yes I was dismayed to see the chloramine level.
But I've found a cheap source for bottled water, and brewed my 4th beer with it yesterday.
Even threw in a campden tablet as I see some bottled waters contain chlorine/chloramine (learned that here).

Did a taste after boil and cool down, and no funky flavor. Will taste again when ready to bottle in 3 weeks.
Until I get a good beer, I can't justify a reverse osmosis purchase. I want to prove the water is the problem first.
I'm sure it is.
Meantime, the cheap bottled water is my plan to prove it.

Thanks everyone for indulging me on this endeavor. This site has been priceless.

 

[fizzix]

UPDATE:
Beer #4 Lawnmower beer from the HBT recipe section here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/lawnmower-blonde.473208/
was made with all bottled water and is a resounding success after two weeks in bottles.
Just a taste test, mind you. Won't serve until the 3rd week.

I can finally relax and have a home brew.

 

[whiskeyjack]

Congrats! Ive been in the same boat. Several of my beginner brews did not go so well. I had several brews with a twang, even in all grain. I may be overly critical of my beer but i dont think my beer started to taste good until I figured out basic water for brewing. If you are going to buy your water you might as well adjust with salts and take that extra step. You generally only need 2-3 salts and some acid/aciduated malt. If you have trouble you could always post your recipe and we set you up. Cheers!

 

[DownstairsBrewing]

Bottled water might end up being tedious, but at least you have isolated your problem and have three possible solutions (Bottled water, Campden tablets, water filtration that reduces chloramines). As whiskeyjack notes, you can take it further than that without much additional work.

 

[thehaze]

I also use bottled water, because I have no means for RO water. Bottled water is easy 'cause you get al minerals and whatnot on the bottle. From there, I use Bru'nWater and build up my water profile for brews. Works a wonder.