What happens when you use to much Gypsum?

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I just purchased a reverse osmosis system for my all grain system and used a water profile that asked for almost 39g of Gypsum for a 10 gallon batch. We treated enough for 15 gallons that included the hot liquor tank. Our local brew shop had given us the Burton-on-Trent profile that came from Pro Mash. In the profile it called for 2.6 grams of Gypsum per Gal. Is that right? Did we read it wrong? or was Pro Mash wrong? When I looked at the Gypsum bottle after brew day I noticed that it says to add 1 to 2 tsp per 5 gal. Of course I read it after brew day. Our estimated starting gravity was 1.054 and our actual starting gravity was 1.043. Big difference!

 

[jlpred55]

You will get a sharp almost minerally bitterness quality to the beer if you use too much gypsum. I've used 6 grams in a 6 gallon batch and that was on the verge of too much and that only got my gypsum up to 250PPM, which was a modifying of my current water. To me the 800 or so that is the burton profile is way too much. 39 grams sounds like a crap load. I cannot say that the resulting beer will taste like hell but I'd bet it is going to very sharp.

 

[OLDBREW]

Did you read the water chemistry primer help file by Robert Arguello first?

Make sure you look through the tutorials

 

[ajf]

I have tried brewing an English IPA with a Burton water profile according to Promash. The results were less than stellar.
I have also tried a really bitter IPA using 1/2 lb EKG for a 5g batch with the profiles suggested by Terry Foster (Ca 150 - 200 ppm, SO4 300 - 400 ppm, and Cl 30ppm). The difference was like night and day with Foster's suggestions being much better.
For a more moderate IPA, he suggests Ca 100 - 150 ppm, SO4 200 - 300 ppm, and Cl 30 ppm. I do this quite often and have been very pleased with the results.

-a.

 

[gifty74]

Reading more about gypsum I think that is what might be resulting in a very dry, almost sharp, flavor in my most recent IPA. At some point along the way, with my over-analysis of my local water, I somewhere picked up the advice to "add gypsum to accentuate the hop flavor in IPAs and PAs". Well, I added a teaspoon to my last brew (not sure how many grams that is). But, the resulting flavor, as verified by several friends, is simply put as a very dry beer. I'm now pretty sure it's the gypsum giving it that dry, sharp flavor. I can't wait to try another IPA and not use it. Not sure where I got on the kick, but I did, and now I'm kind of regretting it.

 

[Clayton]

cold crashing your finished beer @29f~30f and hold it for a few days, this will help presipatate out as much of the gypson as possable, if it get slushy it will remove even more it , the gypson will Crystalize and fall to the bottom.

 

[tunoffun]

Your calculations were not wrong. If you're trying to emulate Burton on Trent using gypsum as modeled in the brewing software programs I'm familiar with, you're about where you need to be on Ca & Sulfate.

Now whether this water profile is actually realizable using standard brewing salts is beyond my scope of knowledge.

 

[kevmoron]

I added 15 g of gypsum to a 5 gal Maris Otter Amarillo SMaSH I brewed at OG 1060 and IBU 35. It was the best pale ale I ever brewed. I always add at least 10 g of gypsum when I make a very hoppy beer, and the results have always turned out great as far as the hop profile is concerned.

 

[ghpeel]

I don't have the exact numbers but I misread my first beer kits instructions and added a couple table spoons of gyspum to it (an APA). Turned out fine, quite tasty in fact.

 

[gifty74]

I added 15 g of gypsum to a 5 gal Maris Otter Amarillo SMaSH I brewed at OG 1060 and IBU 35. It was the best pale ale I ever brewed. I always add at least 10 g of gypsum when I make a very hoppy beer, and the results have always turned out great as far as the hop profile is concerned.

Wow, so at 4g/tsp that's 4 tsp or 2 Tbsp. I guess it really depends on your initial water profile, and what might be deficient or what might be abundant. From what I've gathered the gypsum can really help those with water on the soft side, to add some hardness through the calcium. My water is already very hard at 161ppm of calcium and 230ppm of hardness. So, with me adding a hardening salt to my already hard water, I think that's where I'm getting the flavor. Can't wait to try a hoppy beer without it.

 

[kevmoron]

Wow, so at 4g/tsp that's 4 tsp or 2 Tbsp. I guess it really depends on your initial water profile, and what might be deficient or what might be abundant. From what I've gathered the gypsum can really help those with water on the soft side, to add some hardness through the calcium. My water is already very hard at 161ppm of calcium and 230ppm of hardness. So, with me adding a hardening salt to my already hard water, I think that's where I'm getting the flavor. Can't wait to try a hoppy beer without it.

Yes, it does depend on the initial profile. If you use Beersmith, it is very helpful for this in that it will let you set your initial municipal water profile and build up from there.

I live in NYC, and our water supply is very soft.

 

[gifty74]

Awesome, that makes sense that you would need to add in the gypsum having the soft water. I know that with my beer, I hit all of the numbers, and had a very good brew session, maintained consistent fermentation temps, and all of the comments I get are just that the beer is very dry. Good flavor, but the bittering hops are over-accentuated to the point they leave a very sharp and dry mouthfeel.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Reviving a necro thread instead of starting anew...

Brewing an 11g batch of Pilsner. Using RO water and my brewing calculator spreadsheet (Bru'n Water) suggested 0.4g gypsum in the mash and 0.6 in the sparge. Based on the "Pilsen" water profile.

Well, I read it wrong and saw I wanted 7.4 ppm sulfate and somehow decided to add 7.4g of gypsum to the mash water. Added the appropriate amount to the sparge.

I didn't want to make new water, so I just went with it.

Simple recipe; 20# german pils, 8 oz Saaz split between 60m and 30m additions) targeting 33 IBU, and SafLager W-34/70. No other water additions than the gypsum.

What can I expect from overshooting the gypsum?

 

[RCope]

No perceptible difference...for that volume, 7.4g will not be noticeable. You will still have a nice Czech Pilsner. Just my experience...Cheers!

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, I often have as much as 7 grams of gypsum in the strike for 11 gallons of my hazy ipas...

Cheers!

 

[DBhomebrew]

A lot depends on the water to begin with. An extra 7g of gypsum will matter more in RO than with a water starting with decent alkalinity.

Can you use Bru'n Water backwards to estimate the pH of using 18.5x the recommended gypsum?

 

[Snuffy]

spackle?

 

[dmtaylor]

It will be great. It will just be more like a Dortmunder lager than a Pilsner. Harder edge on the bitterness and finish, not soft as you would get from Pilsen.

 

[Bassman2003]

However it turns out please let us know!

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

A lot depends on the water to begin with. An extra 7g of gypsum will matter more in RO than with a water starting with decent alkalinity.

Can you use Bru'n Water backwards to estimate the pH of using 18.5x the recommended gypsum?

Will have to wait until I get home from work, but I'll take a look.

I've never measured mash pH in nearly 20 years of brewing, so I don't actually know what I don't know though

It will be great. It will just be more like a Dortmunder lager than a Pilsner. Harder edge on the bitterness and finish, not soft as you would get from Pilsen.

Yeah, once I did it I got to that decision point of "do I just go ahead with it or do I make 8.5 gal more water and delay my brewday by 1-2 hours?" And I figured I'd go ahead with it. I'm sure hopeful it won't suck.

 

[Willy]

spackle?

Yeah ... I was going say, the amount you added should be fine... I doubt you even notice.

But if you really add way way way too much gypsum, you'll get some wort infused drywall.

 

[MaxStout]

Yeah ... I was going say, the amount you added should be fine... I doubt you even notice.

But if you really add way way way too much gypsum, you'll get some wort infused drywall.

Came for the drywall beer reference, leaving satisfied.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

What can I expect from overshooting the gypsum?

It will likely dropped out of suspension. Calcium sulfate exhibits retrograde solubilty, meaning the hotter it is, the less it dissolves. When I use gypsum, I dissolve it the night before. It is not only retrograde, it is also slow to dissolve. It hits a saturation point of 2.5 grams per liter @ 25C.

In other words, not much made it into the beer, so you will be fine.

 

[Bassman2003]

It will likely dropped out of suspension. Calcium sulfate exhibits retrograde solubilty, meaning the hotter it is, the less it dissolves. When I use gypsum, I dissolve it the night before. It is not only retrograde, it is also slow to dissolve. It hits a saturation point of 2.5 grams per liter @ 25C.

In other words, not much made it into the beer, so you will be fine.

So if someone is try to "Burtonize" their RO water with a huge addition into the mash, odds are the gypsum will not hit the numbers?

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

So if someone is try to "Burtonize" their RO water with a huge addition into the mash, odds are the gypsum will not hit the numbers?

Yes. Calcium chloride has a saturation point of @750 grams per liter, compared to 2.5 grams per liter for gypsum. Calcium chloride dissolves quickly and increases solubility as the temperature rises. Gypsum is lower in solubility as the temperature rises. So when added directly to the mash, calcium chloride easily dissolves, the gypsum doesn’t dissolve as quickly, I’m not sure you would hit your calculated numbers.

Gypsum should be dissolved at room temperature and with enough water volume so it doesn’t saturate, and with enough time. I found that if I add 5-6 grams to a gallon of water, it dissolves quicker. Typically I wait 24 hours to make sure the gypsum is in solution.

 

[Bramling Cross]

Yes. Calcium chloride has a saturation point of @750 grams per liter, compared to 2.5 grams per liter for gypsum. Calcium chloride dissolves quickly and increases solubility as the temperature rises. Gypsum is lower in solubility as the temperature rises. So when added directly to the mash, calcium chloride easily dissolves, the gypsum doesn’t dissolve as quickly, I’m not sure you would hit your calculated numbers.

Gypsum should be dissolved at room temperature and with enough water volume so it doesn’t saturate, and with enough time. I found that if I add 5-6 grams to a gallon of water, it dissolves quicker. Typically I wait 24 hours to make sure the gypsum is in solution.

I concur. Since I've started doing LODO stuff and building my water the night prior to brew day, I've had to adjust my gypsum additions.

I've also stopped using calcium chloride because I don't trust it very much due to it's affinity to grab water, but that's an entirely different discussion.

 

[Bassman2003]

What do you mean "grab water"? Soak up water? In the bottle or in the strike water?

 

[Yooper]

What do you mean "grab water"? Soak up water? In the bottle or in the strike water?

Calcium chloride is incredibly hygroscopic. Unless you're using a solution or have a way to dehydrate the CaCl2, you won't really know how much chloride you're adding since it sucks up any moisture in the air.

It's actually used commercially as a dessicant.

 

[MaxStout]

I concur. Since I've started doing LODO stuff and building my water the night prior to brew day, I've had to adjust my gypsum additions.

I've also stopped using calcium chloride because I don't trust it very much due to it's affinity to grab water, but that's an entirely different discussion.

Since I use the LODO trifecta (which includes sodium metabisulfite), there becomes an increase in sulfates, due to metabisulfite oxidizing. Bru'n Water displays that in the water adjustment tab, so I adjust calcium sulfate accordingly. Looking at Bru'n Water, adding 30ppm metabisulfite (my usual dose) adds 30.3ppm sulfate, and 7.2ppm Na.

I still use CaCl2 in the mash, but it's kind of a rough guess, due to the moisture uncertainty. In Bru'n Water I select the dihydrate, and I try to keep the bottle of CaCl2 tightly sealed.

 

[mabrungard]

That inadvertent dose of gypsum to the mashing water shouldn't be a ruinous issue. Assuming you used roughly 8 gal of mashing water and 7.4 g of gypsum and the appropriate dose in the sparging water, the sulfate is probably going to be less than 100 ppm. Not a disaster, but the resulting beer will finish more dryly than it would have with a normal dosing.

With regard to gypsum solubility at typical homebrewing dose, it is completely soluble and it dissolves readily, even in hot water. But it does sink to the bottom of the vessel and sit there if you don't stir it up so that it can dissolve. Stirring solves the problem, but if it doesn't dissolve it means something is wrong and its not pure calcium sulfate. If you ever have that problem, put a drop of acid on the dry powder and see if it fizzes. If it does, it's got chalk in it.