What happened?

[NYShooterGuy]

Brewed my 10th and 11th extract beers last night and last Monday respectively. Both were from MoreBeer!.com, and for the first time I used a LARGE grain bag for steeping.

I was able to get the grains very loose because of the size of the bag and ended up having a huge OG. I followed the instructions and added only the supplied ingredients.

The first was an ESB with a projected OG of 1.042-1.046. I got an OG of 1.062

Lat night's was an imperial Stout with a projected OG Of 1.082 - 1.086. I got an OG of 1.112

Now before you ask: I know how to read a hydrometer, been doing so for 11 batches of my own and several from a friend's brews. The temps for both beers were 64-66° F and a hydrometer calibrated for 60°F. The hydrometer wasn't sticking to the side of the tube, and the beers were VERY sweet to taste.

Ease help me! Was it the large grain bag allowing the sugars to steep out more efficiency?

 

[Clonefan94]

Full boil or topping off? Seems when people top off, they underestimate how much mixing is required to get he water and wort to mix.

Also are you sure your measurements are good? What are you using to determine you are in fact at 5 gallons?


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[NYShooterGuy]

Boiled 4.5 gallons. Boil off from evaporation was about 1/2 gallon. Added the remainder after cool down for pitching. Topped off at 5 Gallons. Used the markings on the side of fermenter.

Also did about 5 pours back and forth between buckets to aerate.

 

[joshesmusica]

i'm curious about this as well. i recently read about some people double crushing grains for steeping and for BIAB. when i did this i got A LOT of sugars out for a black ipa. my thinking is that they're not simple sugars, so i'm wondering if my FG will also be high.

 

[kh54s10]

My feeling is that there was some error in the readings, or that the ingredients in the kit were not correct to the instructions.

I don't think that the bag could have made a significant rise in efficiency.

The other thing to check is your volume measurements. If you are using a fermentation bucket, the volume markings are often off. Measure out a gallon, add it to the fermenter, mark the level add another gallon and mark it, etc.

If your volume is low your gravity will be higher.

Also, check the calibration of the hydrometer if you haven't already. I have read of people who have used one for years then the numbers change. Checking, the hydrometer is off. Sometimes the paper with the numbers moves inside the hydrometer.

 

[danath34]

Yeah I agree the bad aloine isn't going to make that big of a difference, especially since we're talking about extract + steeping grains, right? Even if we're talking mini-mash, most of your gravity is going to come from the extract.

It's gotta be a measurement error somewhere. Either in the volume measurement, hydrometer measurement, or ingredients bought/given.

Did you do your aeration pours before or after topping off?

 

[Clonefan94]

I'm with the others here who think it's a bad measurement somewhere, either volume markings are off (mine were on the low side by almost a quart), hydrometer calibration (that paper inside will move sometimes), or the extract was more than the recipe called for. I just think it would be tough to get 20 points out of steeping grains.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[IslandLizard]

Very curious. You've "measured" 130-134 extra points (5 gal * 26 pts) over the predicted in your Stout.

Was this a complete kit or did you order the ingredients yourself from a recipe?

Sounds like a measurement or calculation error somewhere. Please recheck that hydrometer in plain water.

 

[NYShooterGuy]

Kit was pre measured by supplier. Hydrometer is not miscalibrated. Measure was after adding h2o to "top off". Absolutely sure I have 5 total gallons. Probably supplier compensating for home brewers being "ineffecient"

 

[joshesmusica]

do you have the ingredients list handy? some of us could type it into our recipe software and see if that's different than what the kit expected.

 

[FatDragon]

Kit was pre measured by supplier. Hydrometer is not miscalibrated. Measure was after adding h2o to "top off". Absolutely sure I have 5 total gallons. Probably supplier compensating for home brewers being "ineffecient"

Let's imagine the kit was designed to get all of its sugars from extract and they calculated zero gravity points from the steeping grains.

Now let's imagine you got 100% extract efficiency from steeping your grains.

In that situation, you're looking at over three and a half pounds of steeping grains to overshoot the kit gravity by 26 points in a five gallon batch.

In reality, the kit is probably designed to account for a typical sugar contribution from the steeping grains (whatever that calculates out to), and you're not going to get 100% efficiency out of those grains, or likely anything close to it if you're just steeping them.

So, either:

A) There was too much extract (supplier measured wrong/supplier replaced LME with DME in a 1:1 ratio/you added some of your own on accident)

or

B) You didn't get the full five gallon volume

or

C) The supplier ran the numbers all screwy when designing the recipes

or

D) Your hydrometer reading was off - probably because of wort that wasn't completely mixed, which can still happen after pouring the wort back and forth between buckets a few times.

Whatever the reason, the least likely answer is that you extracted over 130 extra gravity points from your steeping grains.

 

[Billy-Klubb]

Let's imagine the kit was designed to get all of its sugars from extract and they calculated zero gravity points from the steeping grains.

Now let's imagine you got 100% extract efficiency from steeping your grains.

In that situation, you're looking at over three and a half pounds of steeping grains to overshoot the kit gravity by 26 points in a five gallon batch.

In reality, the kit is probably designed to account for a typical sugar contribution from the steeping grains (whatever that calculates out to), and you're not going to get 100% efficiency out of those grains, or likely anything close to it if you're just steeping them.

So, either:

A) There was too much extract (supplier measured wrong/supplier replaced LME with DME in a 1:1 ratio/you added some of your own on accident)

or

B) You didn't get the full five gallon volume

or

C) The supplier ran the numbers all screwy when designing the recipes

or

D) Your hydrometer reading was off - probably because of wort that wasn't completely mixed, which can still happen after pouring the wort back and forth between buckets a few times.

Whatever the reason, the least likely answer is that you extracted over 130 extra gravity points from your steeping grains.

this is a very common problem. I used to pick up my 6.5 gallon carboy with 5 gallons wort and shake the hell out of it to aerate after topping off and would get extra high readings sometimes. two of my brothers used the pour back and forth method with the same results.

 

[FatDragon]

this is a very common problem. I used to pick up my 6.5 gallon carboy with 5 gallons wort and shake the hell out of it to aerate after topping off and would get extra high readings sometimes. two of my brothers used the pour back and forth method with the same results.

This sounds like the start of a homebrew horror story:

"I used to pick up my 6.5 gallon carboy with 5 gallons wort and shake the hell out of it . . . then one day it slipped and broke and sent a shard of glass directly into my brain, expertly incising the part of the brain that makes one feel remorse for punching another man in the berries. I've never been the same since."

 

[homebrewdr]

I order from morebeer often. When I did their extract kits, I notice the OG that is "predicted" on the instructions is a little low (compared to actual), but it depends on the kit. Although I like their ingredients, I never depended on their directions or predictions.

What you need to do is plug your ingredients into a program like BrewR (android app) or whatever software you are familiar with. My bet is the OG will be much closer to what you actually got on brew day.

As far as your FG, it shouldn't be any higher than you would normally get for the style of beer you are brewing. Might be a little higher, but it depends on your ferment-ability and yeast attenuation. You'll just have to wait and see how it drops

 

[Billy-Klubb]

This sounds like the start of a homebrew horror story:

"I used to pick up my 6.5 gallon carboy with 5 gallons wort and shake the hell out of it . . . then one day it slipped and broke and sent a shard of glass directly into my brain, expertly incising the part of the brain that makes one feel remorse for punching another man in the berries. I've never been the same since."

I never removed that shard of glass. I don't want to change back.ipe:

 

[NYShooterGuy]

I bought the MoreBeer!.com JP Imperial Porter kit.

Steeped 4oz. Black Patent
1 lb. Crystal 60L
12oz. Pale Chocolate
1lb. Munich
8 oz. Honey Malt
8 oz. Carapils

(4 lbs of steeping grains)

12lbs. Ultralight malt extract
4oz. Malodextrin

(12.25 lbs extract sugars.)

And off course hops.

 

[Kevin79]

<iframe width="100%" height="500px" src="http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/207153" frameborder="0"></iframe>

 

[Kevin79]

<iframe width="100%" height="500px" src="http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/207153" frameborder="0"></iframe>

I was in line in with most everyone else as far as there being some sort of measurement error on part of the OP until I plug the recipe in. Assuming the recipe the the OP posted is correct then a gravity of 1.100+ is to be expected

 

[Kevin79]

I don't know why my link didn't work? Posted from the mobile app, I'm probably doing something wrong. But if you enter that recipe into Brewers friend you get almost the exact same OG as the OP did

 

[IslandLizard]

I bought the MoreBeer!.com JP Imperial Porter kit.

Steeped 4oz. Black Patent
1 lb. Crystal 60L
12oz. Pale Chocolate
1lb. Munich
8 oz. Honey Malt
8 oz. Carapils

(4 lbs of steeping grains)

12lbs. Ultralight malt extract
4oz. Malodextrin

(12.25 lbs extract sugars.)

And off course hops.

That's a wonky recipe. Munich should be mashed, typical steeping in an excess of water won't do much but add a lot of starch to the wort. Ideally, Carapils should be mashed too.

So how come the recipe directions list the wrong OG?

 

[joshesmusica]

I bought the MoreBeer!.com JP Imperial Porter kit.

Steeped 4oz. Black Patent
1 lb. Crystal 60L
12oz. Pale Chocolate
1lb. Munich
8 oz. Honey Malt
8 oz. Carapils

(4 lbs of steeping grains)

12lbs. Ultralight malt extract
4oz. Malodextrin

(12.25 lbs extract sugars.)

And off course hops.

is this a 5 gallon batch?

yeah. typed it into beersmith. got OG 1.100 and FG 1.023 for a final abv of 10.3%. from my experience beersmith often underestimates for steeping grains, but maybe i have it set up wrong (for this one it's saying steeping grains are adding 1.004). BUT at least you're closer to that estimated OG than the kit tells you, which is WAY off.

 

[NYShooterGuy]

It's probably the supplier underestimating the home brewer? I tend to be very strict with how and where I send my money. Some might say I'm frugal or thrifty. As such, I try to get the most out of my ingredients. I dip the extract containers into the hot wort and swirl to ensure that no extract is left behind. I used to also squeeze the grain bag, but have now began to utilize a strainer over another pot to allow the sugar to pour out and be dumped back into the wort.

The last two beers I brewed were from MoreBeer.com and both have a much higher OG then was listed in the instructions and product information.

I've brewed from Northern Brewer, Midwest Supplies, and Brewer's Best kits. All have made OG close to, but never over the original OG listed in the instructions.

I will now have to remember that MoreBeer.com underestimates the OG for their kits. Not the worst problem to have as a home brewer.

 

[joshesmusica]

what size was your batch?

my process sounds a lot like yours! i don't wanna waste any possible fermentable sugar! haha

 

[NYShooterGuy]

I make only 5 gallon batches. These last two (I thought) were a total of 5 gallons. Oops.

When racked, I get only 4.6 - 4.8 gallons. But then with the priming sugar and 16 oz. of water mixture added for bottling, I get just shy of 5 gallons.

I doubt the 0.2- 0.4 gallons of water can account for the 0.030 gravity points difference I've been getting.

 

[homebrewdr]

Ok. Here is the Math from BrewR. The numbers are dead on.

12 lb Light LME: 1.037 (73.8%)
1 lb Crystal 60 L: 1.034 (6.2%)
1 lb Munich: 1.033 (6.2%)
12 oz Chocolate: 1.029 (4.6%)
8 oz Honey Malt: 1.030 (3.1%)
8 oz CaraPils: 1.033 (3.1%)
4 oz Black Patent: 1.028 (1.5%)
4 oz Malodextrin: 1.046 (1.5%)

You say you got about 4.8 Gallons, so I accounted for that and got:
Predicted OG: 1.111
Estimated FG: 1.028
Estimated ABV: 10.9%

Your actual OG was 1.112.

Once you add your bottling solution, it will be slightly different. Either way, the predicted OG from the software, at the time you measured OG...is very close.

Like I said in my previous post, when ordering from morebeer, do not rely on their predictions. My best bet is that they do not update their directions when recipes change, but I have no idea because I do not work there. Another guess is that their predictions could be based off 6 gallon batches to be safe and account for trub loss. When you type it into the brew software, a 6 gallon batch comes with an OG of 1.087 which is within their predicted range. If you guys are overly concerned, call/email and ask. When I brewed extract kits from them (probably about 15-20 kits), the OG being high would be the normal expectation. At least it wasn't less than expected! Trust your brew software (more or less).

Update: Contacted the company and they say the recipes are based on 5.5 Gal. This could account for some of the "off predictions", but certainly not all of it.

Enjoy that Imperial Stout and Cheers!

 

[NYShooterGuy]

Ok. Here is the Math from BrewR. The numbers are dead on.

12 lb Light LME: 1.037 (73.8%)
1 lb Crystal 60 L: 1.034 (6.2%)
1 lb Munich: 1.033 (6.2%)
12 oz Chocolate: 1.029 (4.6%)
8 oz Honey Malt: 1.030 (3.1%)
8 oz CaraPils: 1.033 (3.1%)
4 oz Black Patent: 1.028 (1.5%)
4 oz Malodextrin: 1.046 (1.5%)

You say you got about 4.8 Gallons, so I accounted for that and got:
Predicted OG: 1.111
Estimated FG: 1.028
Estimated ABV: 10.9%

Your actual OG was 1.112.

Once you add your bottling solution, it will be slightly different. Either way, the predicted OG from the software, at the time you measured OG...is very close.

Like I said in my previous post, when ordering from morebeer, do not rely on their predictions. My best bet is that they do not update their directions when recipes change, but I have no idea because I do not work there. Another guess is that their predictions could be based off 6 gallon batches to be safe and account for trub loss. When you type it into the brew software, a 6 gallon batch comes with an OG of 1.087 which is within their predicted range. If you guys are overly concerned, call/email and ask. When I brewed extract kits from them (probably about 15-20 kits), the OG being high would be the normal expectation. At least it wasn't less than expected! Trust your brew software (more or less).

Update: Contacted the company and they say the recipes are based on 5.5 Gal. This could account for some of the "off predictions", but certainly not all of it.

Enjoy that Imperial Stout and Cheers!

Hey, thanks for doing all that work! I need to try it myself from now on. I have a lot of recipes that I would like to work out and predict the outcomes.

Let's hope his stout ferments and conditions well! Love my dark beers this time of the year!

 

[joshesmusica]

yes, i personally highly recommend beersmith. it's pretty cheap for what it gives you. and if you ever have any questions about the software you can just email the guy who made it and he's usually pretty quick at replying.
this time of year? you're gonna wanna condition that one for quite some time. months even...

 

[NYShooterGuy]

Yeah? I didn't think it would have to condition that long?

 

[FatDragon]

It's probably the supplier underestimating the home brewer? I tend to be very strict with how and where I send my money. Some might say I'm frugal or thrifty. As such, I try to get the most out of my ingredients. I dip the extract containers into the hot wort and swirl to ensure that no extract is left behind. I used to also squeeze the grain bag, but have now began to utilize a strainer over another pot to allow the sugar to pour out and be dumped back into the wort.

The last two beers I brewed were from MoreBeer.com and both have a much higher OG then was listed in the instructions and product information.

I've brewed from Northern Brewer, Midwest Supplies, and Brewer's Best kits. All have made OG close to, but never over the original OG listed in the instructions.

I will now have to remember that MoreBeer.com underestimates the OG for their kits. Not the worst problem to have as a home brewer.

It sounds like your "steeping" is basically a BIAB-style mini-mash, and that MoreBeer calculated for very little contribution from the four pounds of steeping grains (even though there is diastatic power in the Munich to get some conversion). That's gonna be a big beer!

 

[NYShooterGuy]

That's what I was thinking too, but computer programs prove I didn't make a mistake