What happened here. Efficiency issue

[olotti]

I b ought a new mill and first batch I used it I came in at 74% efficiency which is up from my std labs milled grains of 68%. Today made a neipa used the same gap setting boiled to the same amount if not a touch less and I’m 4pts low. Idk. I mash in a 10gal Coleman with false bottom and used 7gal mash in for a 16.25lb grain bill which per beer Smith is around 1.65-1.7qts per lb and I mashed at 154 for 80 min. Vorloufed collected first runnings and single batch sparge with 4 gal to get my 7.5 preboil then I boiled down to 6.25ish gal my target. I use bru’n water for my mineral additions and lactic acidosis to bring down mash ph which had me at 5.3. So any idea how I came up so short using a finer crush and same water treatments etc for this neipa??? I’m confused and I’ve been brewing 8 yrs now all grain. Thanks for any ideas.

 

[VikeMan]

My first thought is, why are you expecting the same mash efficiency from every batch? Are the grain bill sizes the same?

 

[olotti]

My first thought is, why are you expecting the same mash efficiency from every batch? Are the grain bill sizes the same?

roughly yes. But I use beer Smith to map out my grain bills and efficiency. The last batch I did had a real bad prob with hopburn so I wanted to keep every variable the same for grain bill and water and just adjust my hops. So I figured if I came out high the last one using the same mash and sparge water amount I should’ve been high on this one too. Now I did set this one at 70% efficiency and the last I used the beer smith std of 68%. Unless I wrote the grain bill down wrong from the lhbs or he shorted me on something on accident that’s the only thing I can think of.

 

[bleme]

Was there more wheat in this batch?

 

[olotti]

Was there more wheat in this batch?

I upped it from 1/2 lb to 1lb and I also used 1/2lb rice hulls which I did in the other batch too but maybe I didn’t put that in beer smith. Idk how 8oz of rice hulls would effect things. Grain Bill was

13lbs pilsner
1.5lbs flaked oats
1lb white wheat
8oz munich
8oz c10
4oz carapils
8oz rice hulls.

 

[bleme]

I ask about the wheat because they are usually a smaller grain than barley so the same mill setting doesn't crush them quite as well. The rice hulls might contribute a bit, because they hold onto some sweet wort, but I wouldn't think it would be much.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

Did the mill gap change? How did the crush look?

 

[VikeMan]

The rice hulls might contribute a bit, because they hold onto some sweet wort, but I wouldn't think it would be much.

In my experience, hulls (by weight) absorb/block more wort than malt does. I imagine it's because of the fairly bulky (non dense) nature of the hulls.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

In my experience, hulls (by weight) absorb/block more wort than malt does. I imagine it's because of the fairly bulky (non dense) nature of the hulls.

Hmm... when I've used rice hulls, with wheat malt or flaked fermentables, I had no decrease in mash efficiency.

 

[olotti]

Did the mill gap change? How did the crush look?

Mill gap did not change if anything I tightened it a smidge. Crushed looked great to the point I thought uh oh I’m gonna have a stuck sparge but it latutered great.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

Mash time vs prior?

 

[olotti]

I ask about the wheat because they are usually a smaller grain than barley so the same mill setting doesn't crush them quite as well. The rice hulls might contribute a bit, because they hold onto some sweet wort, but I wouldn't think it would be much.

Maybe next time I’ll have the wheat seperated out From the rest of the grain and I’ll mill the base then tighten it and then mill the wheat. I’m still working with this mill here but it did have more wheat than last batch so it was prob at least another lb of Pilsner and minus 8oz of wheat in the last batch.

 

[olotti]

Mash time vs prior?

I usually mash 90 min but this was prob 75-80 min mash time. When I opened the top of the cooler mash temp was 152-153 from my initial 155 mash temps so temps held well I think.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

Mash, at least to me, sounds good. What about pH. Any change in the mash water from prior mashing?

 

[olotti]

Hmm... when I've used rice hulls, with wheat malt or flaked fermentables, I had no decrease in mash efficiency.

I did up the oats from 1lb previous to 1.5lbs just FYI. Idk if this would do anything. And white wheat went from 8oz to 1lb and previous batch I had 1lb Munich and this was 8oz Munich

 

[olotti]

Mash, at least to me, sounds good. What about pH. Any change in the mash water from prior mashing?

I don’t have a meter so I just go off of bru’n water which I’ve used for years and I dialed it in to my usual mash ph of 5.3.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

Based on the grist list should have plenty of diastatic power to convert.

 

[olotti]

Mash, at least to me, sounds good. What about pH. Any change in the mash water from prior mashing?

I did up the salts to increase the chloride without increasing calcium I had to mess with epsom and canning salts to up chloride and decrease calcium so that increased more sodium into the mash but decreased the calcium in the past. So I believe it was 98ppg calcium, 15ppm sodium, 30ppg mag, 80 sulfate, 200 chloride. I use distilled water.

 

[olotti]

Based on the grist list should have plenty of diastatic power to convert.

I agree. That’s why I’m stumped. I just checked the vol on my fermenter which is glass but I have the vols marked off from previously filling it and marking off gallons and I’m right where I should be at 5.75 gal.

 

[olotti]

Based on the grist list should have plenty of diastatic power to convert.

and I’m not necessarily upset but I want consistency and when hair changes beer to beer using the same process I’m just confused. And before I moved and had to get grains from a diff lhbs and my efficiency went down I assumed it was their mill but now I mill a batch and get better efficiency then the next it’s worse All using the same process so that doesn’t add up to me. Idk.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

I plugged the recipe into BS3. Of course I don't know your BH efficiency, equipment profile or mash type. BS3 estimates OG 1.045. What did you get?

 

[olotti]

I plugged the recipe into BS3. Of course I don't know your BH efficiency, equipment profile or mash type. BS3 estimates OG 1.045. What did you get?

1.072. Beer Smith had me at 1.076

 

[olotti]

1.072. Beer Smith had me at 1.076

And I plugged in the recipe using 70% efficiency. Usually I use 68% the beersmith default setting and last beer I was at 74% total efficiency.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

Oh, I based on 10 gallons. Doesn't matter if you already did.

1.072 vs 1.076 isn't far off. Unless the fermentables are completely accurate they are just estimates.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

And I plugged in the recipe using 70% efficiency. Usually I use 68% the beersmith default setting and last beer I was at 74% total efficiency.

Is that BH efficiency or mash efficiency?

 

[olotti]

Oh, I based on 10 gallons. Doesn't matter if you already did.

1.072 vs 1.076 isn't far off. Unless the fermentables are completely accurate they are just estimates.

It’s for 7.5 preboil 60 min boil 6.25 end of boil with 5.75 into fermenter

 

[olotti]

Is that BH efficiency or mash efficiency?

I stopped taking pbg readings years ago when my refractometer broke but I was usually spot on with my numbers so I never bothered to buy another

 

[olotti]

Is that BH efficiency or mash efficiency?

I believe that’s bh efficiency. When u go to the fermentable page and plug in your volumes and og, fg and final volume my last was 74%. If this ferments to 1.014 which is lower than predicted but typical for what I’ve been getting it’ll be 68% total efficiency with the og I took today

 

[VikeMan]

I believe that’s bh efficiency. When u go to the fermentable page and plug in your volumes and og, fg and final volume my last was 74%. If this ferments to 1.014 which is lower than predicted but typical for what I’ve been getting it’ll be 68% total efficiency with the og I took today

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, but final gravity does not impacty mash efficiency or brewhouse efficiency.

 

[olotti]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, but final gravity does not impacty mash efficiency or brewhouse efficiency.

Oh I know I was just giving the numbers. I know it’s about final volume and og right that makes bh efficiency.