HI, this is my first time posting in the wine forum. I make a lot of beer, and am very active in the beer forums. I had a few commercial beers recently that have had some grape juice added and have been impressed, and want to research this further by making a few of my own beers with the addition of grape juice.
I have no idea what different grape juices add to the final product. I'm thinking of using somewhere in the region or 30% (maybe more, maybe less) grape juice in the product, so it will be significant. I really have no idea what different grapes are available. When I look at what is available, there seems to be so many.
1) First question I have is: Why not just use concentrate from the local supermarket. Is it really that different? Of course it is different, but what do the different juices/grapes available bring to the table?
2) Next question: What does wine yeast bring to the table. I'm looking at something in the region of 8 to 10% abv as a final product. Ale yeasts do fine to that level and bring an array of flavors. I'm probably looking at a Belgian yeast with fruit or spicy flavors. What would I gain by using a wine yeast. What do wine yeasts bring to the party.
3) If supermarket concentrates are out (I suspect they are). what is the difference in juice supplied by different companies. I see a great difference in prices for similar grape concentrates. Also, where would one recommend buying grape concentrate. I'm figuring I'll buy a 5 gallon wine kit and split it between a few batches. MoreWine seems to be reasonable, especially since there are no taxes or shipping costs for kit wines.
4) I'm sure there is a lot I don't know (I know there is a lot I don't know - that is why I am here to learn from you). This is a new area for me making a 'hybrid' brew. Any advice from the experienced wine makers?
Thanks for taking the time to read this and any help or advice you can provide will be most welcome.
Sounds like an interesting project.
I suspect that the products you are referring to are actually fermenting the grape juice right into the product ... not just adding it as a backsweetener of some sort.
I see that some of these hybrid products are using grape juice for about 25 % of the ferment. Some are using brett as the yeast and others are using the natural wild yeasts found on the grape skins (that is, not adding commercial yeast). Others are using a Belgian wheat yeast. With some, the result is being barrel aged like wine. Not sure if that is in a charred barrel or not.
All very artisanal for sure.
I would absolutely stay away from the Brettanomyces.
If I was really serious about this I’d actually call some of the commercial makers (such as Avery brewing in boulder) and ask if their barrels are charred or not (etc) in order to determine whether and/or how much they re oaking the product (introducing extra tannin by letting the product be in contact with oak wood).
It would appear that it is popular to use a lighter malt maybe a pilsner, or maybe a wheat.
The grapes being used are apparently carefully chosen varieties ... and also the techniques used are advanced and start at the viticulture level ... that is, in the vineyard during the growing season.
All very admirable but maybe not so necessary for a small batch as one’s first foray into such products.
Personally I’d leave the specialty vinting for later batches.
Re your questions ...
1) Personally I think that supermarket juice would be fine for a first, small test batch. While for my first batch I would not likely use a concord grape juice like Welch’s (purple) which tends to have a very specific and possibly overpowering taste profile ... I *would* instead use Welch’s white grape product which is in fact a Niagara grape. Some people do use a concord adjunct in beer making. I guess I’d start with the safer bet. But the concord might be a reasonable choice too.
Both are available in either 64oz bottles or frozen concentrate. The frozen concentrate would be my choice also as a simple way to raise the OG of the wort (prior to fermenting)... unless you did not need to raise the ABV much due to trying to keep to something more like a true low-alcohol saison.
Frozen Concentrated Grape Juice (FCGJ) might also help to insure a more noticeable grape character.
2) Yeast. With the majority of the ferment being wort, I’d think your Belgian would be just fine.
If you want to try a wine yeast, one which promotes the esters responsible for fruity and floral notes and has a number of other desirable characteristics you could use Lalvin’s K1-V1116.
K1-V1116 (lalvin) ... this should be fermented in an open top fermenter as it has a higher oxygen requirement than some other yeasts. K1 is good at fighting off other unintended yeasts and microbes, good at low fermentation temperatures, not too high of nitrogen requirements. With 75% of the ferment being wort, I’d think it would be a happy yeast without added nutrients as long as oxygen was not restricted during most of the primary ferment.
The less “wort” and the more “must” ... the more likely I’d add a bit of “yeast energizer” preferably one which contains at least some DAP (a common nitrogen source) ...
I’d add it from about ¼ of the way thru the ferment to about the half-way point (in terms of SG change).
Carefully keep your ferment at 55* to 58*F for best results with the K1.
You were asking about the difference between beer yeast and wine yeast? ... most wine yeast is not so good at fermenting maltotriose. One wine yeast that *does* ferment it as well as any beer yeast is K1-v1116. But really, if you are going to mash anyway, the maltotriose is probably not much of an issue.
Another difference ... some (but not all) wine yeasts can cause a fouling odor called Phenyl off-flavor (POF). POF can cause a masking of some of the varietal character of certain grapes/wines.
Beer yeast does not typically cause POF ... neither does K1-v1116.
I don’t think that either of the two differences I note above is terribly significant to your project. But you asked.
If I am recalling correctly, I believe that K1 is, coincidentally, traditionally the most widely used “wine yeast” for beer production.
A second choice I’d consider in a wine yeast for such a product ... 71B-1122 (lalvin). 71B would definitely promote a fruity nose to come through in the beer.
Again, because of issues with what is called yeast “survival factor” development, this yeast definitely needs an open top fermentation for oxygen and also the addition of yeast *energizer*.
3) grape concentrates. For the initial small test batch, personally I would be fine with a FCGJ as found at the grocery store.
The primary differences bottled verses FCGJ, are that frozen concentrates may be less likely to contain added chemicals, particularly sorbates & sulfites ... and to a degree at least with “organic” products, anti-oxidants such as ascorbic acid. The sorbates absolutely will not fly ... the sulfites - eh, avoid them as much as possible ... as far as a bit of ascorbic acid - not such a big thing.
If what you find is a frozen concentrate that contains ascorbic acid, for the initial batch I’d think it fine. Bottled juices also typically undergo stabilization which removes pectin through chemical and heat methods, this is so the juice does not throw a sediment while sitting on the shelf at the grocery store, and unless it is sulfited, bottled juice runs the further risk of browning due to oxidation.
This shelf stabilization means that some of the more delicate varietal character would be lost.
This shelf-stabilization/pasteurization is *not* done on proper “wine grape” concentrates made for winemakers.
The type of grape concentrate found at the vintners supply is produced by basically extracting and condensing the tannins & polyphenols ... then adding it back to the juice (basically increasing the content) ... then the juice has the water evaporated from it under high vacuum. Then usually a pectinase and some sulfiting is added (to protect against oxidation). This results in a concentrate that will still express the varietal nature of the grape.
By all means, if you are not just futzing around on the first batch go buy a proper wine grape concentrate. It can only help.
4) as for your question #4 about general tips ... that’s a tougher question to answer. I’ll say:
Keep really good notes ...
Keep on top of your fermentation temps ...
Don’t put under airlock until primary fermentation is nearly to the end (i.e. do your primary fermentation in an open-top fermenting bucket with a piece of thin material such as a t-shirt etc secured across the opening to keep debri/fruit flies etc out) ...
Keep headspace in your carboy to a minimum ...
Unless you expect to drink the product very soon, DO use a mild dose (say, half the dose on the sulfite bottle) of potassium metabisulfite after primary fermentation to counter oxidation and loss of fruit character and nose ...
Keep really good detailed notes. er, did I already say that(?). Yep.
If it were me, for my first batch or so while I work out the kinks, I would ....
Go with 25% grape in the wort. Supermarket FCAJ or grape concentrate from the vintner/brewer supply
a lighter malt
nelson sauivon hops (might help with the grape character)
K1-V1116 yeast
ferment 55* to 58*(max)
open top fermenter
don’t boil with the grape juice included ... and so, that also means
observe strict sanitation
For what it's worth I would also use parts of a batch to *carefully* experiment with varying amounts of oaking using oak chips or cubes ... probably in the secondary.
