What efficiency boost to expect from 90 min mash?

[beauvafr]

I get about 65-70% for 60 min mash. What to expect for 90 min?

 

[Yooper]

I get about 65-70% for 60 min mash. What to expect for 90 min?

65-70%. You shouldn't get any efficiency boost from a longer mash- the mash probably is converted in the first 20 minutes, but holding it until 60 minutes to ensure it's converted without testing it is standard. If you aren't converted in 60 minutes, there is generally a problem. Holding it to 90 minutes isn't going to change that.

 

[wilserbrewer]

With a marginal crush, might the additional time help the sugars migrate out of the larger grain particles?

My limited understanding is that conversion happens pretty fast, but lautering or rinsing of the grain is expedited by a finer crush?

All that said, how's your crush?




Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/

 

[beauvafr]

I buy my grain already crushed.

I also heard that crushing to much can lead to harsh / bad tannins flavors.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I buy my grain already crushed.

I also heard that crushing to much can lead to harsh / bad tannins flavors.

I have heard that a well, not sure I really believe it. I would try having the LHBS run the grain twice through the mill if it appears a coarse crush with remaining whole kernels of grain.


Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/

 

[Calichusetts]

I don't get as much a boost from a longer mash but more consistency. No idea if there is anything behind it but I am pretty spot on this year...like exactly on the numbers for 70%

 

[RM-MN]

I buy my grain already crushed.

I also heard that crushing to much can lead to harsh / bad tannins flavors.

If that were true my beer would be undrinkable because I put my grains through my Corona style mill with the plates tightened down so far that they are rubbing when it is empty. My grain husks (the source of tannins) are ripped to shreds. No, tannins are not caused by crushing grains too much, they are extracted when your water is too high in pH and the water is too hot. Keep your mash and sparge below 6.0 pH and the temperature doesn't much matter either but if you let the pH rise (usually from over sparging) and hit the grain bed with really hot water you can extract tannins.

 

[Goolsbymd]

I hate to only bring some info but my mind is a little cloudy right now. 90 min boils are typically used for grain bills with high amounts of Pilsner to boil off more DMS. Typically i stick with 60 mins.

 

[JBOGAN]

65-70%. You shouldn't get any efficiency boost from a longer mash- the mash probably is converted in the first 20 minutes, but holding it until 60 minutes to ensure it's converted without testing it is standard. If you aren't converted in 60 minutes, there is generally a problem. Holding it to 90 minutes isn't going to change that.

I agree with Yooper on this one and if you are searching for better efficiency there are other places to look such as water,mash ph and the overly stated crush. I use a 90 minute mash on a few belgians and lagers but mostly for my saisons. Different temps and different mash times produce different sugar/starch breakdown. BobbyM(BobbyFromNJ) has a great video on youtube describing this and IMHO it is a lot better than Palmers explanation its Mashing Mechanics.

 

[JustLooking]

I hate to only bring some info but my mind is a little cloudy right now.

No! You're sharp as a tack this morning.

 

[Hello]

I hate to only bring some info but my mind is a little cloudy right now. 90 min boils are typically used for grain bills with high amounts of Pilsner to boil off more DMS. Typically i stick with 60 mins.

He is asking about increasing mash to increase efficiency.

I thought efficiency stayed the same with a longer mash.

 

[j1n]

Seems like AG folks that don't crush their own grain get low efficiency.

 

[JustLooking]

I thought efficiency stayed the same with a longer mash.

Given an equal crush, lower mash temperatures require a longer mash to get the same conversion as a higher mash temperature for a shorter period of time. Efficiency isn't about the type of sugars converted, it's the amount. You should mash until conversion is complete or until you've reached your planned OG. Attenuation is where there's a difference. If you're doing a middle of the road mash temperature (say 152) and do a really long mash the beta enzymes will start to break down the sugars already converted by the alpha enzymes giving you a highly fermentable wort and a finished beer with less body. The type of sugar will change, but not the amount, so efficiency is the same.

 

[dobe12]

Given an equal crush, lower mash temperatures require a longer mash to get the same conversion as a higher mash temperature for a shorter period of time. Efficiency isn't about the type of sugars converted, it's the amount. You should mash until conversion is complete or until you've reached your planned OG. Attenuation is where there's a difference. If you're doing a middle of the road mash temperature (say 152) and do a really long mash the beta enzymes will start to break down the sugars already converted by the alpha enzymes giving you a highly fermentable wort and a finished beer with less body. The type of sugar will change, but not the amount, so efficiency is the same.

You sure about that? I didn't think mash temp had much or any affect on efficiency. I know mash thickness is suppose to have some affect on efficiency, but I don't believe it's much.

Won't a longer mash break down the sugars and give you a more fermentable wort?

 

[JustLooking]

You sure about that? I didn't think mash temp had much or any affect on efficiency.

Sorry. I was too wordy, but that is what I was trying to say, but a lower temperature does require a longer mash time to get the same amount of conversion.

Won't a longer mash break down the sugars and give you a more fermentable wort?

A longer mash will only break down additional starches if conversion is not complete. What it will do is convert long chain sugars into short chain, but that does not change the efficiency, just the fermentabity.

 

[dobe12]

Sorry. I was too wordy, but that is what I was trying to say.

But that's not what you said. You said

lower mash temperatures require a longer mash to get the same conversion as a higher mash temperature for a shorter period of time

Which isn't true.

A longer mash will only break down additional starches if conversion is not complete. What it will do is convert long chain sugars into short chain, but that does not change the efficiency, just the fermentabity.

And that is exactly what I said.

Won't a longer mash break down the sugars and give you a more fermentable wort?

Am I being filmed or something

 

[JustLooking]

I didn't think mash temp had much or any affect on efficiency.

I think we're close to being on the same page. As you say, the temperature alone will not change the amount of conversion, but it will take longer to get that conversion.

You disagree that conversion will take longer at a lower mash temperature, but that's what I've found in both practice and research.

 

[JustLooking]

And that is exactly what I said.

Am I being filmed or something

The reason I repeated it was to make the difference between starches, sugars and different types of sugars clear to someone who may be confused. I thought I made it clear in my original post (#13), but by your replies I obviously did not.

 

[Hello]

Boy am I confused. So if I mash at 148, I want a longer than 60 minute mash? I know when I mashed at 156 last week I only did a 45 minute mash.

 

[Likefully]

Boy am I confused. So if I mash at 148, I want a longer than 60 minute mash? I know when I mashed at 156 last week I only did a 45 minute mash.

The details are confusing. BUT if you mashed for 60 minutes you will be fine. If you stick in the right temperature range (148 to 156) you will be fine. If you add a bit more water so the mash is a bit thinner than the recipe says it should be you will be fine.

 

[Hello]

The details are confusing. BUT if you mashed for 60 minutes you will be fine. If you stick in the right temperature range (148 to 156) you will be fine. If you add a bit more water so the mash is a bit thinner than the recipe says it should be you will be fine.

Okay, that works for me. Thank you.

 

[Likefully]

BobbyM(BobbyFromNJ) has a great video on youtube describing this and IMHO it is a lot better than Palmers explanation its Mashing Mechanics.

These videos are so good! Thanks for sharing.

 

[JustLooking]

Boy am I confused. So if I mash at 148, I want a longer than 60 minute mash?

That will mostly depend on your crush, but as Likefully said, normally conversion is pretty fast and a 60 minute mash will cover any situation. If you're not hitting your OG you can look into either a longer mash or a finer crush if it doesn't give you lautering problems.

 

[Yooper]

Boy am I confused. So if I mash at 148, I want a longer than 60 minute mash? I know when I mashed at 156 last week I only did a 45 minute mash.

If I mash under 150 degrees, or use a lot of adjuncts, I will typically extent my mash time to 75-90 minutes to ensure conversion although it probably isn't strictly necessary. It definitely won't hurt, as a beer mashed under 150 is intended to be a thinner drier beer anyway.

When I mash at 147, for example, I usually mash for 90 minutes. Some adjuncts, like oats, will take longer to convert as well so I'll mash even an oatmeal stout for 75 minutes even at 156 although it probably isn't needed. I don't generally check for conversion unless I'm in doubt.

 

[Hello]

That will mostly depend on your crush, but as Likefully said, normally conversion is pretty fast and a 60 minute mash will cover any situation. If you're not hitting your OG you can look into either a longer mash or a finer crush if it doesn't give you lautering problems.

I am hitting my OG most of the time. I do wonder though if my crush could be better. I've decided for my next brew I will use another LHBS and see if things work out differently.

If I mash under 150 degrees, or use a lot of adjuncts, I will typically extent my mash time to 75-90 minutes to ensure conversion although it probably isn't strictly necessary. It definitely won't hurt, as a beer mashed under 150 is intended to be a thinner drier beer anyway.

When I mash at 147, for example, I usually mash for 90 minutes. Some adjuncts, like oats, will take longer to convert as well so I'll mash even an oatmeal stout for 75 minutes even at 156 although it probably isn't needed. I don't generally check for conversion unless I'm in doubt.

Embarrassingly, I couldn't tell you how to check for conversion. But it makes sense as a whole.

 

[paperairplane]

60 minutes is just a nice round convenient number. With modern grain, a low adjunct bill and a good crush you can most likely get a very good conversion in under 30 minutes.

I do BIAB and have a fair amount of flour in my mash, as I have no risk of getting stuck. I can taste a fair amount of sugar within 10 minutes.

I've done some 75 and 90 minute mashes, and typically hit my numbers as well as if it were 60.

 

[JustLooking]

I'll mash even an oatmeal stout for 75 minutes even at 156 although it probably isn't needed.

The only risk of a longer mash in a beer like this is that Beta Amylase doesn't denature until around 158 degrees and has the potential to continue to break down the sugars into a more fermentable wort. This could work against the reason why you mashed high to begin with. It's a balancing act with other influencing factors such as water chemistry. If you're happy with your beer, you're doing it right.

 

[Yooper]

The only risk of a longer mash in a beer like this is that Beta Amylase doesn't denature until around 158 degrees and has the potential to continue to break down the sugars into a more fermentable wort. This could work against the reason why you mashed high to begin with. It's a balancing act with other influencing factors such as water chemistry. If you're happy with your beer, you're doing it right.

Yes, it seems to be working (FG generally 1.016-1.018, which is where I want it) in an oatmeal stout..

 

[Hello]

Yes, it seems to be working (FG generally 1.016-1.018, which is where I want it) in an oatmeal stout..

I know that you have mentioned in other threads, more specifically about cider I think, that you do not care for sweet. Do you ever do something like a sweet stout and if so, do you aim for 1.016-ish as well?

I don't like dry stouts/porters much as I've come to learn. I do like a slightly sweeter stout for sure, which is in stark contrast from my earlier days of drinking beer. I wonder if 1.016 is a sweet spot (no pun or poetry intended) for a stout.

 

[hindey19]

I hate to only bring some info but my mind is a little cloudy right now. 90 min boils are typically used for grain bills with high amounts of Pilsner to boil off more DMS. Typically i stick with 60 mins.

You're absolutely right, but I think he's talking about mash time, not boil.

 

[Yooper]

I know that you have mentioned in other threads, more specifically about cider I think, that you do not care for sweet. Do you ever do something like a sweet stout and if so, do you aim for 1.016-ish as well?

I don't like dry stouts/porters much as I've come to learn. I do like a slightly sweeter stout for sure, which is in stark contrast from my earlier days of drinking beer. I wonder if 1.016 is a sweet spot (no pun or poetry intended) for a stout.

No, that's about as sweet as a beer as I'll ever make- and it's not really all that sweet. It's rich and definitely more sweet than a dry stout, but it's not as sweet as a sweet stout to me. I don't use lactose in it, but some lactose would make it sweeter if you wanted to add some.

 

[pablosbrewing]

Embarrassingly, I couldn't tell you how to check for conversion. But it makes sense as a whole.

Put some mash on a white plate - add a drop of iodine or iodophor - purple = starch left. Test some at mash in to know what it looks like, really dark mash is harder to see it.

 

[sar_dog_1]

I think this has been answered somewhere in this thread, but if I mash in and lets say I test for conversion every 5 mins. As soon as conversion is complete (clear results from iodine) can I mash out? Even if conversion is complete at say 20 min. What is the benefit to continuing mashing if any? Someone said the beta almayse will take over but is that make a difference?
I am asking because it would be nice to shorten a brew day.

 

[C-Rider]

I buy my grain already crushed.

I also heard that crushing to much can lead to harsh / bad tannins flavors.

Old Wife's Tale

 

[wilserbrewer]

I
I am asking because it would be nice to shorten a brew day.

You can shorten the mash, personal preference of course. With modern highly modified malts conversion can happen rather quickly.


Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/