Hi, did I something wrong? I mashed, got a OG of 1.049, placed half tube of white labs german lager (the tube was already open but in refrigerator) and placed it around 20 degrees celsius for around 3 to 4 days. After the bubbles slowed down, I placed it on a beach cooler with ice for 3 more days (around 47 Farenheit). After that, I racked and place it on the beach cooler again but around 40 degrees Farenheit. I waited 2 weeks!!!! And the gravity was in 1.040!!! Its less than 2% of alcohol!!! Also, the smell was different, it was like fermented but didnt smell like beer. What happened???? Please help!!!! Im desperate!!! Thanks in advance
What did I do wrong?
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It sounds like you are trying to make a lager. You state you used 1/2 a tube of yeast. This is probably the problem. Instead of a half a tube of yeast you need probably 5 or 6 full tubes or to make a starter.
This is assuming this is a 5 gallon lager brew.
Lagers need huge amounts of yeast.
This is assuming this is a 5 gallon lager brew.
Lagers need huge amounts of yeast.
2.5 gallons would still require about 2-3 vials worth of yeast!
I still think that seriously underpitching the yeast is your problem. I do not have experience with lagers so have no recommendations on what to do.
I still think that seriously underpitching the yeast is your problem. I do not have experience with lagers so have no recommendations on what to do.
WesleyS
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I often use only half a tube of white labs yeast for my 5 gallon batches, including lagers, but I always make a starter first. 1 tube might be enough to get by for a 5 gallon batch of lower gravity ale, but for lagers and high gravity ales you definitely need a starter beforehand.
More inadequate instructions! They are the bane of beginners.
Also, Lagers are one of the hardest styles of beers for beginners to make properly.
Instructions for ales often state to use only one vial, and it will ferment the beer. But, it is generally accepted that to make better beer, pitching the proper amount of yeast is important.
http://www.mrmalty.com/
and
http://www.yeastcalc.com/
are good sites for information on yeast counts.
Several thoughts:
1. If you had the tube open, even in the refrigerator, for very long (more than a couple days) the number of viable yeast cells would drop. The longer it was in the refrigerator, the more dramatic the drop.
2. Lagers require more precise control over yeast numbers, since the fermentation is slower.
3. Yes, the manufacturer says that one tube will handle 5 gallons, but that is with fresh (think less that one week old) yeast and ideal gravity and temperature. If you look at YeastCalc or Mr.Malty, you will see that a starter is almost always necessary.
Edit - kh54s10 is dead on and a little faster on the keyboard.
stratslinger
Well-Known Member
Yes, you underpitched for a lager - lagers typically need 2 to 3 times as much yeast as ales, so even if you started with half as much wort as a typical batch, pitching half a vial started you with half as much yeast as you should've started with - which should've left you with a longer lag time and, at worst, so wierd off flavors. However, I think people are overlooking a crucial second part here too:
This, if you're using the correct terminology, is what might've sunk you.
If you really racked your beer - transferred it from one fermenter, where you had an active fermentation going - into another fermenter, then you removed the beer from the vast majority of the yeast that had managed to build up. Then you placed it at 40 degrees which, depending on the yeast strain (you didn't mention which strain you were using) is likely too cool to actually continue fermentation.
Is this what you did, or are you using the wrong term when you say you racked? Because if it is what you did, all is probably not lost - this can be salvaged!
This, if you're using the correct terminology, is what might've sunk you.
If you really racked your beer - transferred it from one fermenter, where you had an active fermentation going - into another fermenter, then you removed the beer from the vast majority of the yeast that had managed to build up. Then you placed it at 40 degrees which, depending on the yeast strain (you didn't mention which strain you were using) is likely too cool to actually continue fermentation.
Is this what you did, or are you using the wrong term when you say you racked? Because if it is what you did, all is probably not lost - this can be salvaged!
stratslinger
Well-Known Member
Most likely, yes. But you have to pay attention to what temperature that yeast works at. What strain did you use the first time around?
stratslinger
Well-Known Member
We really need to know more specific than "german lager yeast." The reason I say that is to figure out what temperature to aim for. I'm fairly certain that you did two things here that hurt your chances: 1) you racked your beer off the yeast and 2) you tried to ferment too cold for your yeast. Yes, there are lager yeasts that ferment down around 40F - but not many of them. Most are happy right around 50.
I don't think there's really a good reason to change yeasts, unless you just happen to have another one on hand. If you have to run out and get yeast anyway, stay the course, get the same yeast you started with and carry on. But make sure to find out the correct fermentation temperature for that yeast, and do your best to hit that temperature.
I don't think there's really a good reason to change yeasts, unless you just happen to have another one on hand. If you have to run out and get yeast anyway, stay the course, get the same yeast you started with and carry on. But make sure to find out the correct fermentation temperature for that yeast, and do your best to hit that temperature.
Ok, the thing is I originally used a white labs german lager yeast, thats the name of it. i dont have it anymore, I have a whole tube of white labs american lager yeast. Can I use it? It will save it? Will the off odors and flavors dissappear?
stratslinger
Well-Known Member
Alright then - yes, you can pitch that, though your end product will be slightly different than it would've been. The German strain ferments clean and malty, while the American strain ferments clean and dry, with a slight apple sweetness. (Just going by what Northern Brewer and White Labs have to say on the strains)
First thing's first - the American Lager yeast (WLP840) strain has a temperature range of 50-55F (Same goes for the German strain, by the way). So, keep in mind that pitching a single vial, you're still underpitching, and it's going to take a couple days to show any sign of life.
Get that beer up to 55 or 60 degrees and pitch the vial. Then, once you see signs of life, bring it back down to that 50-55 range. Do not rack it again until it's done fermenting!
Once it's done fermenting, then you can rack it again and put it away for a while at 40F - that's the lagering process, cold storage after fermentation.
Good luck!
First thing's first - the American Lager yeast (WLP840) strain has a temperature range of 50-55F (Same goes for the German strain, by the way). So, keep in mind that pitching a single vial, you're still underpitching, and it's going to take a couple days to show any sign of life.
Get that beer up to 55 or 60 degrees and pitch the vial. Then, once you see signs of life, bring it back down to that 50-55 range. Do not rack it again until it's done fermenting!
Once it's done fermenting, then you can rack it again and put it away for a while at 40F - that's the lagering process, cold storage after fermentation.
Good luck!
Something is not right here. You say you fermented at 68 degrees for 3 days first and after airlock activity slowed then you dropped the temp. So basically you fermented at ale temps, saw (lots?) of active fermentation and when it slowed basically cold crashed it. If that is the case it seems impossible that your gravity only dropped from 49 to 40. Maybe you should take another gravity reading. Lager yeast is well known for making bad smells and flavors initially (especially fermented at 20 C) which resolve with time.
stratslinger
Well-Known Member
Sorry - I did leave that part out.
Fermenting beer - especially fermenting lagers - do tend to throw off a lot of odd smells mid ferment. And if they're only halfway fermented, you'll defiitely get some funky flavors. If you repitch and allow fermentation to complete, then yes, you'll finish fermenting out the remining sugars and then the yeast should also have a chance to clean up a lot of the byproducts they produce, which are largely responsible for the funky smells and flavors you're noticing.
So yes, in all likihood, if you can get the beer to ferment out, the funkiness will go away.
Fermenting beer - especially fermenting lagers - do tend to throw off a lot of odd smells mid ferment. And if they're only halfway fermented, you'll defiitely get some funky flavors. If you repitch and allow fermentation to complete, then yes, you'll finish fermenting out the remining sugars and then the yeast should also have a chance to clean up a lot of the byproducts they produce, which are largely responsible for the funky smells and flavors you're noticing.
So yes, in all likihood, if you can get the beer to ferment out, the funkiness will go away.
Just one more thing stratslinger, in future circumstances, I have to pitch enough yeast quantity by the calculator yeast you sent me. Place on 55-60F until there is no more bubbles, rack to secondary, leave it a week there and then drop temperature to 40F for another week. Thats how you do a lager beer?
stratslinger
Well-Known Member
Almost, but not quite...
Use one of the yeast calculators mentioned in this thread - they're great for Ales or Lagers, just make sure to specify what you're doing. And check with the manufacturer for what the right temperature is for the specific yeast strain you're using. Ale strains tend to like significantly warmer temps than lager strains, and lager strains tend to like temps in the low 50's, mostly.
So, if you're doing a lager, if you pitch the correct amount of yeast, typically you can actually gradually bring the beer down to the ideal temperature for its strain and leave it there until it reaches FG. In some cases, you may want actually bring it up about 10 degrees when it's about 75% of the way to its FG, but if you stick with that American Lager strain this probably won't be the case for you.
After you've it FG, that's when you rack to secondary and store at 40 - but typically you want to do so for more like a month or two. Basically, the higher your OG, the longer you want this lagering stage to last.
Ales are easier - just get them to the right temperature for the Ale yeast, pitch the ale yeast, and let the yeast do their thing. And try to keep them at that temperature! (That can be easier said than done - fermenting beer makes heat!)
And just to make sure I'm absolutely clear - when I mentioned before to bring your wort up to 55 or 60 and pitch, I meant to bring it up to that temperature, pitch the yeast, and then to drop it down to the 50-55 range as soon as you notice bubbles. NOT when the bubbles stop. You want most of your fermentation to happen at 50-55, but the slightly warmer temperature will help your yeast to get started up, since you're technically probably still not pitching enough yeast.
Use one of the yeast calculators mentioned in this thread - they're great for Ales or Lagers, just make sure to specify what you're doing. And check with the manufacturer for what the right temperature is for the specific yeast strain you're using. Ale strains tend to like significantly warmer temps than lager strains, and lager strains tend to like temps in the low 50's, mostly.
So, if you're doing a lager, if you pitch the correct amount of yeast, typically you can actually gradually bring the beer down to the ideal temperature for its strain and leave it there until it reaches FG. In some cases, you may want actually bring it up about 10 degrees when it's about 75% of the way to its FG, but if you stick with that American Lager strain this probably won't be the case for you.
After you've it FG, that's when you rack to secondary and store at 40 - but typically you want to do so for more like a month or two. Basically, the higher your OG, the longer you want this lagering stage to last.
Ales are easier - just get them to the right temperature for the Ale yeast, pitch the ale yeast, and let the yeast do their thing. And try to keep them at that temperature! (That can be easier said than done - fermenting beer makes heat!)
And just to make sure I'm absolutely clear - when I mentioned before to bring your wort up to 55 or 60 and pitch, I meant to bring it up to that temperature, pitch the yeast, and then to drop it down to the 50-55 range as soon as you notice bubbles. NOT when the bubbles stop. You want most of your fermentation to happen at 50-55, but the slightly warmer temperature will help your yeast to get started up, since you're technically probably still not pitching enough yeast.
stratslinger
Well-Known Member
Try, in general, not to use bubbles as a signal to rack. Bubbles can, in general, be a decent signal that fermentation has started up, yes. But, depending on how good a seal there is on your fermenter, you can have full fermentations go on with no bubbles. Also, you can get bubbles just because of temperature changes, that have absolutely nothing to do with fermentation. So they can be misleading at times.
The only way to really know that fermentation is complete is to see gravity readings come up the same for 3 days in a row. When you think fermentation is complete (sure, you can guess by the bubbling or lack thereof), take a gravity reading. Come back again two days later and take another gravity reading. If the two match, then fermentation is complete and you're ready to rack (whether to secondary to lager, or to a bottling bucket is up to you).
The only way to really know that fermentation is complete is to see gravity readings come up the same for 3 days in a row. When you think fermentation is complete (sure, you can guess by the bubbling or lack thereof), take a gravity reading. Come back again two days later and take another gravity reading. If the two match, then fermentation is complete and you're ready to rack (whether to secondary to lager, or to a bottling bucket is up to you).
Ok, I am a little scared about that because everytime I determine gravity I have to use siphon to take a portion out, measure it and I dont know if I can pour it on the fermentator again because I think its going to oxidate. Do you have a trick to do it without this problem?
Take gravity samples using a turkey baster. You can get one in any grocery store. Do not return the sample to the fermenter. If you do you are risking infection.
