What am I doing Wrong?

[mattbs4e]

Hello, I need some help from the wealth of other brewers here.

I just finished one of my best batches of beer to date, a clone of Ballast Point's "Victory at Sea"--a coffee vanilla imperial porter. And even though this is probably my 20th+ home brew, I can't seem to get the following two things right:

-Carbonation
-Mouth Finish

For my carbonation process, I use priming sugar that I dissolve and boil, then let cool. I stir it slowly into my batch and then let sit for 20 mins. I then fill all my bottles from the batch and then go back and cap them in order. So they are probably all sitting open for about 7 minutes or so before they are capped. (Someone told me this was good in order for the CO2 to push any remaining oxygen out).

I've progressively used less and less priming sugar. This time I used around 2/5ths of a cup. BUT STILL---after 3 weeks in the bottle, my caps are all swollen outward and every bottle I open I have to let it sit in the sink for 10 minutes while it finishes bubbling over! What am I doing wrong??



Secondly--the finish, most of my beers start off great--with a wonderful aroma, strong body, and interesting tastes from whatever I'm experimenting with (oak chips, coffee, coriander, basil, vanilla bean, honey, etc, etc), but then they die in your mouth like the rug got pulled out and down the cliff you went. Kinda like how a Guinness goes down like water after a big mouth start.

I got into home brewing with one personal motto--"never brew anything I can easily find at the local convenience store." I love doppel-bocks, Belgian triples, and anything with a long lingering finish. I'm not looking for a classic pilsner that will quench my thirst, I want something that will be a meal unto itself. I was explaining to my friend that I like a beer that tastes like an endless invading army that never ceases to keep coming through the gate. But all I end up with is a strong front line, and then a hollow follow-through.

What am I doing wrong?? I've used all kinds of Belgium, Mead, Bavarian, Munich, lager, and ale yeasts; added sugar into the secondary, etc. But nothing gives that finish I'm looking for---not even close. It all just tastes like tap water at the end--even though I'm using spring water to brew with.

This finish problem is a bigger one than the carbonation. If anyone has any suggestions, please let me know. I will humbling appreciate any you have to offer.

Thank you.

 

[Psych]

Could you be bottling too soon, before your beer has finished fermenting? This could account for the gushers. That seems a REALLY low amount of priming sugar for, say, a 5 gallon batch.

I'm having similar challenges with mouth feel so I can't comment much there, I just bottled a stout that has a pound of quick oats in it (for mouth feel!) and so far that one DOES feel like it has what I'm looking for, but it's only at bottling phase now and who knows if it'll last.

I'd suggest posting a recipe here for one that hasn't lasted and wiser minds than I can check it out for possible gotchas!

 

[Haputanlas]

Can you give specifics about the brew?

OG/FG
Brewing method (AG, mini mash, extract)
Recipe
Etc

Also, if you're doing an all grain, I'd suggest mashing close to 160. I've done this many times and It's worked great for mouthfeel.

 

[mattbs4e]

Thank you for the responses so far, here is the recipe I used this time:

Batch size: 5.5 gal

Partial Mash

3.5 lbs pale malt extract (60min)
3.5 lbs pale malt extract (15min)

Before adding the extract, I steeped the following grains for about 25 mins, then sparged with boiling water:

-2 lbs pale malt, maris otter
-1/2 lbs carafa
-1/2 lbs carmel/crystal malt 40L
-1/2 lbs carmel/crystal malt 80L
-1 lbs british chocolate malt
-1/2 lbs victory malt

Hops/misc

1oz Goldings, East kent (60min)
1oz Goldings, East kent (30min)
1oz fuggles (15min)
3/4oz Goldings, East kent (0min)
1 tsp Irish Moss (15min)

Primary:
I had a blow off tube in the primary and by the morning it was roaring. I left it in the primary for 10 days. Racked it into the secondary on day 10.

Secondary:
Added 20oz of cold brewed coffee extract, and one chopped up vanilla bean to the bottom of the secondary. Let sit 10 days. On 10th day, I shook it all up and left secondary outside in the sun (recommendation from another brewer--seems to help the fermentation).

Third:
Racked it and filtered out the vanilla bean cuttings. Added 3oz of whiskey-soaked oak chips to bottom of third. Let sit 7 days.

Fourth:
Racked it and filtered out the oak chips. Let sit 3 days.

Day 31:
Added priming sugar and bottled.

As far a sterilization goes, I've very meticulous--I clean and then cook my bottles at 400 degrees for 25 mins for example. I've had other brewers try the beer and assure me nothing is infected or off about the beer, except for the carbonation and the finish.


Anyway, this is just one recipe, and I've done many others, but they all seem to have the same result. Besides the ingredients though, I generally let my brew sit a very long time before bottling, and use good sterilization. But can anyone find any holes in the above method that might be causing these issues?

I really like the idea of putting in the grain at 160 degrees---will that really make a longer finish??

Thanks for any advice

 

[mattbs4e]

Oh, and I don't really bother with OG and FG. I make beer to taste, not really on the alcohol content. I know people say the only way to tell what I beer is doing during the fermentation is to be measuring this, but I just try to get around that by giving the brew plenty of time to ferment--up to 2 months sometimes.

 

[wonderbread23]

Oh, and I don't really bother with OG and FG. I make beer to taste, not really on the alcohol content. I know people say the only way to tell what I beer is doing during the fermentation is to be measuring this, but I just try to get around that by giving the brew plenty of time to ferment--up to 2 months sometimes.

This is precisely your issue. Your beers are likely going into the bottle with high FG which continue to ferment and cause the over-carbonation.

 

[JefeTheVol]

this is precisely your issue. Your beers are likely going into the bottle with high fg which continue to ferment and cause the over-carbonation.

+1

 

[PantherCity]

Higher mash temps might help or some malto-dextrin. I would not recommend exposing your beer to direct sun as this will skunk your hops. Think of how most Mexican lagers in clear bottles taste. I have never bottled so I have little incite there. I assume that they are not fully fermented at bottling time and this is the cause of the gushers.

 

[Mongrel]

Primary:
I had a blow off tube in the primary and by the morning it was roaring. I left it in the primary for 10 days. Racked it into the secondary on day 10.

I'd leave it in primary longer. Since you're not taking hydro readings, you need to give your beer more time on the yeast. Also, that's a lot of racking. You might be oxidizing your beer with all the transfers.

 

[ChshreCat]

Before adding the extract, I steeped the following grains for about 25 mins, then sparged with boiling water:

This could be part of your issues with hour the beer finishes in your mouth. Boiling water is going to extract a lot of tannins from the grain husk. Tannins have an astringent drying effect in your mouth that would really come through after you swallow. That would easily kill any lingering flavor from the beer.

Also, agree on bottling too high. Plus, you should start weighing your priming sugar instead of going by volume. Volume can vary depending on how packed the sugar is in the cup. Weight is always exact.

 

[Zamial]

What the other 2 guys said about it being unfinished + I think this is why:

Primary:
I had a blow off tube in the primary and by the morning it was roaring. I left it in the primary for 10 days. Racked it into the secondary on day 10.

Secondary:
Added 20oz of cold brewed coffee extract, and one chopped up vanilla bean to the bottom of the secondary. Let sit 10 days. On 10th day, I shook it all up and left secondary outside in the sun (recommendation from another brewer--seems to help the fermentation).

When you yank the yeast off the yeast cake before it is done fermenting: The yeast do not have enough time to clean up off flavors and the fermentation can stall. There is still some yeast in suspension but not like being on the cake. You add in more sugar to bottle, the sleepy yeast wake up and start munching on that then look around and finish the sugars that are left.

I use secondaries for dry hopping and adding fruits or other things. Traditionally secondaries are used for "clearing" this is important with wine more so than beer because wine can sit in secondary a LONG time...

I had issues before I used my hydrometer. I tried all the X days and 1-2-3 things and they never worked right. The bigger the beer the longer the fermentation can take. I pitch my yeast and don't even look at it for 2 weeks if it is a wheat beer and 3+ weeks for everything else. I then take a hydro reading. When I get 2 identical hydro readings 24 hours or more apart, I know it is all done fermenting. OG is fun to know to see if I hit my efficiencies and FG is important to know when it is all done. The ABV is a "side effect" that can be calculated from the 2 readings.

Airlock activity is not a way to gauge fermentation either...nuf said on that...

Lastly shaking your fermenter really doesn't do anything but give the chance to oxidize your beer. Putting it in the sun can light strike your beer (make it skunky) in under 5 minutes but this sounds more like a temp increase change to help your now stalled fermentation restart. I do not recommend this either!

GL!

 

[Homebrewtastic]

Oh, and I don't really bother with OG and FG. I make beer to taste, not really on the alcohol content. I know people say the only way to tell what I beer is doing during the fermentation is to be measuring this, but I just try to get around that by giving the brew plenty of time to ferment--up to 2 months sometimes.

You wonder why you have gushers and you never check to see if your beers are done fermenting? Really!?!?!? REALLY!?!?!?

Don't use "I make beer to taste not alcohol content" as an excuse for laziness. Homebrewing is a hobby of patience and measurement. It's fine if you don't care what the ABV is, but that's no reason not to measure your FG.

Also if your beers are blowing over after you open them then you're losing a lot of carbonation that you really want to be in the beer. Why? Because 85% of taste is actually smell. Humans can not smell liquid, only the gasses coming off of a liquid. In the case of beer CO2. So if all of your CO2 is being displaced from foam over after opening, then there's not enough left in the beer at the time of consumption to carry over the aromas/flavors.

Measure your beer. Finish fermentation and all of your ails will be cured.

 

[cwheel]

I'm by no means an expert, but echo what everyone else said....if you have gushers and over-carbonation, its pretty much got to be too much sugar left in the beer. Measure your OG and FG religiously for the next few batches. Fermentation may not be done when you bottle, OR it may be done, you're just ending up with an FG that is too high. I have made beers that finished at 1.010 after 3 days, and I've made beers that have finished at 1.035 after 2 months. Both will clearly have different carbonation properties after warming them up and filling them with additional sugar.

 

[Wingfan13]

I too am not an expert but you are putting the beer in the sun ? I have never heard that before. That cant be good.

 

[Homercidal]

Gushers can also be caused by infection. I'm not saying this is the case here, but it's possible. I'd try what the others are saying and see what happens.

Honestly, the hydrometer is a very useful tool. more useful than for knowing what the ABV is. I NEVER measure for alcohol content, but always measure to know if fermentation is done, or if my brewing has likely produced the beer I was trying to make.

Let the beer ferment for 3 weeks in the primary, than bottle. I do up my sugar water, then pour into the bottom of the bottling bucket and siphon the beer on top of it. The hot water QUICKLY cools and mixes with the beer. Then stir gently to make sure it's mixed well, and bottle right away. The less time your beer is exposed to the air, the less it's likely to pick up any bacteria.

And keep your beers out of the sun! The only time that's appropriate is if you want to duplicate a skunked Mexican or German beer in a green or clear bottle!

EDIT: Oh yeah, and before you bottle your next batch, check your bottling bucket spigot for gunk. They are hard to clean properly without taking apart. A lot of people aren't aware that they are growing black and green stuff in their spigots.

 

[rycov]

Measure your beer. Finish fermentation and all of your ALES will be cured.

fixed it

 

[unionrdr]

It seems to me that sparge water shouldn't be over 170F. Boiling water is def too hot. It also seems to me that you need more un-fermentables to get heavy,long lasting mouth feel. So a higher mash temp might do it. And the hydrometer is def a useful tool. Not just for determining ABV%.

 

[scrambledegg81]

Aside from terminating the fermentation early like everyone mentioned above, for mouthfeel in a porter I'd toss in 1/4 to 1/2 lb of flaked wheat or oats to the steeping bag. It will bump up your OG (if you actually took OG...*newspaper whack*), but either one does wonders for mouthfeel.

 

[mattbs4e]

Alright, I'll stop being stubborn on the OG/FG and actually start using the hydrometer. And let's assume that will end up solving the gusher problem.

What about the lingering finish?: I like the ideas from "scrambledegg81" about flaked oats in the steeping bag, and the mentions of toning down the steeping and sparging water temperature. But will this really make a night/day difference?

"Unionrdr" mentioned adding more "un-fermentables" to achieve this. What might these be, and what specific effects would they have on the finish?

 

[mattbs4e]

And thank you for all of your help so far!

 

[Yooper]

Alright, I'll stop being stubborn on the OG/FG and actually start using the hydrometer. And let's assume that will end up solving the gusher problem.

What about the lingering finish?: I like the ideas from "scrambledegg81" about flaked oats in the steeping bag, and the mentions of toning down the steeping and sparging water temperature. But will this really make a night/day difference?

"Unionrdr" mentioned adding more "un-fermentables" to achieve this. What might these be, and what specific effects would they have on the finish?

The lingering finish probably comes from sparging with boiling water- don't do that!

Also, you can't "steep" that grain bill. You have to mash it (which is sort of the same as steeping, but you must keep it at 150-155 for 45 minutes at least). You probably extracted some starches, and then poured boiling water over it, extracting tannins and denaturing the enzymes.

The ingredients are also a part- chocolate malt can be dry and astringent. Combined with victory malt (also dry) and carafa, your grain bill could be an issue here.

 

[scrambledegg81]

What Yoop said. ^ 155 is the average target for sparge water, and it really can make a difference in terms of what gets extracted from your grain bed.

As for difference in terms of head, I've noticed that oats or wheat tend to improve retention fairly dramatically, so although I might get an eyebrow raised for doing so, I usually toss 1/4-1/2 lb regardless. (I've almost always had weak head retention prior to using wheat/oats, so take that for what it's worth. )

For stuff like IPA's or lighter brews, wheat is your best option (usually less than 1/4 lb for stuff like ESB's) whereas oats tend to work best on porters, stouts & the like.

 

[bonzombiekitty]

What Yoop said. ^ 155 is the average target for sparge water, and it really can make a difference in terms of what gets extracted from your grain bed.

??? I was under the impression that 170 is the target for sparging. Did you mean 155 is the target for mashing?

 

[Yooper]

??? I was under the impression that 170 is the target for sparging. Did you mean 155 is the target for mashing?

Yes, you don't want to go over 170, but going lower won't hurt anything. I sparge with my grainbed at 168 as a rule.

 

[scrambledegg81]

Ergh, yes. 155=mash, 170=sparge.

*derp* >.<