What am I doing wrong with my extract brews?

[hophacker]

To date I've brewed 6 batches and have bottled 3. The first was a basic IPA using Chinook hops, the second was a simple EPA.

I made many mistakes and learned many things from these brews and my expectations weren't that high for my first two. They were drinkable, but not particularly enjoyable (I guess my internal barometer for my own beer is if I brew something that tastes good enough that I'd actually at some point choose to drink it if I had a choice of beers). Since my first two batches, I studied heavily on the internet and completed "The Joy of Homebrewing" (a fantastic read by the way) and felt much better about my approach to brewing.

My next attempt was a Bell's two-hearted IPA clone (called "Dead Ringer", purchased from Northern Brewer). I had high hopes for this one as I felt all my brewing "processes" were generally solid and well thought out.

I bottled over a week ago and took my first sample tonight. I was immediately disheartened: it had good hop aroma, but lacked in any distinct hopiness taste. It had a beer tasting body but lacked any sort of tangy or grapefruit like flavor you'd expect out of a hopped up beer like a real Two-hearted IPA. It felt like it mostly tasted "malty" although I'm not entirely sure how to explain it.

I tried to rewind my mind back to the time when I brewed. The only mistake I recall making is a minor boilover which I resolved immediately (and it's the last boilover I've ever had) and taking a rather long time (about 20 minutes) to cool the boil. Other than that, the brew/fermentation process was ideal as far as I can tell (Hops were added on schedule, fermentation seemed healthy, etc). The only other thing I can think of is during the boil the hops seemed to coagulate at the top of the boil. I assumed this was a part of the normal boil process and didn't spend a lot of time trying to mix these hops into the rest of the boil.

Anyone have any thoughts or ideas as to the result of lack of hop taste?

 

[D0ug]

Are you doing partial boils, that is, boiling less than your full batch size? I have seen it suggested that the higher the gravity of your boil, the lower your hop utilization will be. I think this can have the biggest impact on the bittering hop addition early on, especially if you are adding all the malts extracts in the beginning and only boiling a couple of gallons of water to make your wort.

Going to larger boil volumes can help, if that is the issue. Or, you can also hold off on some of you malt extract additions until the last 10-15 minutes of the boil.

 

[worksnorth]

So just reading your post I'm thinking that this beer may get better as it gets a little bit older.
It looks like the kit comes with Centennial hops which will give you a bit of citrus aroma but maybe it's just not as much as you like? You may have to add some more hops to it next time you brew.
Another thought was how it finished? Was your gravity reading pretty low or did it finish high? If it finished high you may have ended up with a little bit maltier beer?
I'm sure others will chime in with other ideas.

 

[Sloobie]

I think the first thing anybody will tell you is to not judge a beer until at least three weeks have passed in the bottle. It takes time for the beer to mature and taste as it is supposed to.

I'm certainly no expert, but one possibility is that you've scorched some of your extract causing it to caramelize on the bottom of your brew kettle. I've noticed that removing the kettle from heat while adding extract can help. I looked up the recipe on northernbrewer and saw that there are 9.15 lbs of malt syrup. I've personally found it easy to burn malt syrup when adding. This can make it taste a bit maltier than it should.

Other than that, maybe you lost some of your hop matter in the boilover?

In other words: RDWHAHB.

 

[House12]

My first ever brew was a massively hopped DIPA loaded with centennial, simcoe, etc. I remember cracking open a bottle after a week and feeling my heart sink. The hop aroma was glorious, but it tasted like carbonated water and yeast. After three more weeks, I can safely say it was a completely different beer. I'd even go so far as to say it was too bitter for a good DIPA. That was a partial boil with extract. The point is, bottle conditioning beers change significantly over the first few weeks. I'd be willing to guarantee that the boilover didn't effect your beer, and it will be good drinking in about 3 weeks.

 

[bigbeergeek]

Report back in a couple of weeks if you're disappointed with it and we can address potential issues.

 

[hophacker]

Wow, great feedback, thank you everyone!

First, based on everyone's response I'm going to give it time to settle and judge afterwards.

This was a partial boil (2 gallons, definitely less after the boil). Since then I purchased a 10-gallon pot and intend on doing 5.5 gallon batches from here on out (I'm expecting to boil off at least 1/2 gallon probably more).

Now that I think back, the boilover occurred because I applied the malt extract directly to the boil on the stove. I did not remove the pot from the stove during malt additions. So chock that up as mistake #2, because that definitely left a scorch on the bottom of the pot!

 

[Machalel]

Definately number 1 thing to try is to just wait it out. I've got 2 batches at the moment that were waaaaay too malty and syrupy sweet, and in 4-6 weeks have gone from "can't finish a bottle" to "actually not too bad".

 

[lgilmore]

9 pounds of liquid malt into 2 gallons is a lot of strain on that two gallons because it will probably finish at 1 1/2 gallons. Consider a turkey fryer at a place like Home Depot ($59). You get a burner and 30qt kettle. Then you can brew 5 gallon (6gal start) batches without as much worry of scorching the bottom. I saw MN is your home state. If you brew in the winter put a coat on and go to the garage (OPEN either the big door or the little.

this accomplishes a couple things. It allows you to brew like you should and it gets you out of the kitchen to make your wife happy. cheers.

 

[aidan]

I tried to rewind my mind back to the time when I brewed. The only mistake I recall making is a minor boilover which I resolved immediately (and it's the last boilover I've ever had) and taking a rather long time (about 20 minutes) to cool the boil. Other than that, the brew/fermentation process was ideal as far as I can tell (Hops were added on schedule, fermentation seemed healthy, etc). The only other thing I can think of is during the boil the hops seemed to coagulate at the top of the boil. I assumed this was a part of the normal boil process and didn't spend a lot of time trying to mix these hops into the rest of the boil.

Anyone have any thoughts or ideas as to the result of lack of hop taste?

20 minutes to cool the boil is not too long, it's actually reasonably fast, so that's not the issue. It possibly could just be the recipes. I'd suggest you find a recipe for one of your favourite beers, convert it to extract or partial mash and see how close you can get. Have you dry hopped? The aroma from the dry hopping will serve to amplify the hops taste.

 

[vtron]

Wow, great feedback, thank you everyone!

First, based on everyone's response I'm going to give it time to settle and judge afterwards.

This was a partial boil (2 gallons, definitely less after the boil). Since then I purchased a 10-gallon pot and intend on doing 5.5 gallon batches from here on out (I'm expecting to boil off at least 1/2 gallon probably more).

Now that I think back, the boilover occurred because I applied the malt extract directly to the boil on the stove. I did not remove the pot from the stove during malt additions. So chock that up as mistake #2, because that definitely left a scorch on the bottom of the pot!

Moving to full boils will make a lot of difference, especially if you've been adding all of your extract at the beginning of the boil. Doing some quick math, your boil gravity was 1.164 . The hop utilization from such a concentrated wort would be terrible.

 

[House12]

Moving to full boils will make a lot of difference, especially if you've been adding all of your extract at the beginning of the boil. Doing some quick math, your boil gravity was 1.164 . The hop utilization from such a concentrated wort would be terrible.

Diminished hop utilization correlates with high gravity due to alpha acids' tendency to cling to hot break material. A high gravity wort without hot break would likely have just the same hop utilization as a low gravity wort. Since hophacker was using extract (which has most of the hot break removed prior to vacuum concentration) his hop utilization was probably just fine.

The homebrew books all assume high gravity causes low hop utilization. There is a correlation, but the relationship is not causal.

 

[D0ug]

Diminished hop utilization correlates with high gravity due to alpha acids' tendency to cling to hot break material. A high gravity wort without hot break would likely have just the same hop utilization as a low gravity wort. Since hophacker was using extract (which has most of the hot break removed prior to vacuum concentration) his hop utilization was probably just fine.

The homebrew books all assume high gravity causes low hop utilization. There is a correlation, but the relationship is not causal.

I don't know if I agree with this, in my experience I get quite a pronounced hot break using extracts, both with DME and LME.

At least I think it's a hot break. The boil foams up, it has to be beaten into submission, and then it subsides. And there is a bunch of fluffy, goopy stuff on the bottom of the kettle when I'm done.

 

[helibrewer]

House12 is correct, there is considerably less hot break with extract because it has already been through the hot break as part of its creation. Steeping grains will add some protein when brewing with extract as will hops.

 

[unionrdr]

Well,yes & no. I've gotten wild hot breaks from steeping grains with some DME added after grain removal. But it was crazy when making the first batch of summer shandy. she added 1lb of regular plain DME,with 1lb plain wheat DME & it got a wild hot break,with no grains used. But just that 1st time. On this 2nd batch,just a little hot break in a 3 gallon partial boil. Weird inconsistency.

 

[House12]

I don't know if I agree with this, in my experience I get quite a pronounced hot break using extracts, both with DME and LME.

At least I think it's a hot break. The boil foams up, it has to be beaten into submission, and then it subsides. And there is a bunch of fluffy, goopy stuff on the bottom of the kettle when I'm done.

Extract is made by mashing grains, boiling the wort, and then dehydrating the wort under vacuum conditions to prevent scorching/too much maillard reactions. That's not to say that you won't still get some hot break, but the difference between extract and a freshly mashed all grain boil is significant, because it hasn't been boiled yet.

Hot break is basically just coagulated proteins. Even hops will leave behind some hot break since they too have proteins that will coagulate. It's not the foaming that will diminish hop utilization (unless the foam causes Alpha Acids to stick to the top of the brew pot), but the tendency of hop bitterness to cling to the coagulated proteins that are floating around in the boil and drop out at the end. Even just straining some of the coagulation out before adding your hops would increase hop utilization.

The point is, higher gravity liquid does not lead to lower hop utilization unless the higher gravity wort has more hot break material.

 

[unionrdr]

While that first paragraph is basically true,it was just interesting that that one time,the pound of plain wheat DME made a crazy hot break just like steeping grains or mashed grains would.
Otherwise,we just get a little bit of hot break that doesn't foam up more that 1/4" or so.

 

[DonutMuncher]

The point is, higher gravity liquid does not lead to lower hop utilization unless the higher gravity wort has more hot break material.

I guess I'm getting slightly confused now. Hasn't it been widely discussed on these forums that for extract brewing, 5-gallon boils is superior to partial boils because of the better hop utilization and reduced caramelization?

 

[D0ug]

Ok, aside from the hop utilization: SG vs Hot break debate; the OP has said that he is boiling wort starting with 9 lbs of malt extract and 2 gallons of water and his beer doesn't have much hop character.

Is the consensus that moving to a larger boil volume won't help with this issue?

 

[House12]

Yeah. That's really why we brewers are lucky if our hop calculations are within even 20% of actual measured IBUs. There just is no way to know what hop utilization is, because hot break levels can be pretty unpredictable -- and even if we measure how much hot break we have, we really can't be sure how much of our isomerized alphas cling to those proteins and fall out of solution.

(Not to mention, how much clings to flocculated yeast in the fermenter)

 

[unionrdr]

Ok, aside from the hop utilization: SG vs Hot break debate; the OP has said that he is boiling wort starting with 9 lbs of malt extract and 2 gallons of water and his beer doesn't have much hop character.

Is the consensus that moving to a larger boil volume won't help with this issue?

Those ratios being true,it would indeed effect utilization with such a heavy wort. Late extract malt additions would fix this issue without going to a huge pot that you can't get boiling on the stove. 2.5-3 gallon boils with 1.5-2lbs of plain extract malt works very well in solving this issue. It seems to raise utilization enough to where it's at proper levels when the wort & top off water are mixed in the fermenter.

 

[House12]

I guess I'm getting slightly confused now. Hasn't it been widely discussed on these forums that for extract brewing, 5-gallon boils is superior to partial boils because of the better hop utilization and reduced caramelization?

It's superior for a lot of reasons -- though late extract addition can help minimize the difference a bit. If a loss of hop utilization is due to alpha cling to coagulated proteins, it makes sense that the utilization would be higher if those coagulated proteins were spaced out in 5 gallons of wort rather than 2.

Plus, there is probably diminishing return on hop isomerization when high levels of hops are added to low volumes of wort (and then diluted with pure water) rather than high levels of hops added to high volumes of wort.

And back to what the Original Poster was talking about, I really think his only problem is that he needs to wait a couple weeks before drinking his beer. It's too new to tell him anything about whether he messed up. I think his beer will end up just fine.

 

[unionrdr]

Yes,the beer does need to condition a couple more weeks at least. But he said his other problem was percieved hop levels. The wort was far too heavy,& what I related earlier flat works.
Including my IPA,which had 4.5oz of hops in a 2.5G boil,& the remaining 1.5oz dry hopped for 1 week. That's 6oz total,& it was very hoppy indeed,with just a little malt backbone percievable. So it was quite the opposite,hop utilization continued to go up,leaving the actual level where it should be for the finished beer. And that was 6 gallons,or 23L.

 

[House12]

Yes,the beer does need to condition a couple more weeks at least. But he said his other problem was percieved hop levels. The wort was far too heavy,& what I related earlier flat works.
Including my IPA,which had 4.5oz of hops in a 2.5G boil,& the remaining 1.5oz dry hopped for 1 week. That's 6oz total,& it was very hoppy indeed,with just a little malt backbone percievable. So it was quite the opposite,hop utilization continued to go up,leaving the actual level where it should be for the finished beer. And that was 6 gallons,or 23L.

I would argue that his perceived hop levels will be much closer to what he wants after a few weeks. Green beer is not a good indicator of anything but whether the beer has carbonated yet.

Also, it would be important to figure out what is meant by "perceived hop levels". If we are talking about hop bitterness, that would be determined by length of boil and how much isomerized alphas are lost (due to protein coagulation, boilover, alpha cling to the side of the kettle, etc.)

If we are talking about hop flavor, Increasing late boil hop additions and dry hopping is the solution. (When I first started brewing, I used to boil hops the flavor/aroma hops for 5 minutes into my top-up bottles of water and then refrigerate them -- that way I was diluting my partial boil Pale Ales and IPAs with water that was full of hop flavor)

Either way, he won't know what his beer tastes like for a couple of weeks. If his beer is still bad in 2-3 weeks, I will be really surprised -- and then we can all make our guesses about what went wrong.

 

[D0ug]

Hophacker, you said these were in the bottle for a week, how long were they in the primary/secondary?

 

[Hang Glider]

Hophacker -

lots of discussion about utilization, yet you asked about aroma and flavor..

as Aiden and House12 mentioned - dry hopping will get you the noticable hops. The boil hops are all about bittering (to balance the sweet malt)
so...

1) did you dry hop?
2) what were your fermentation temps?

oh, and by the way, if you boil outside with propane in your new 10 gallon pot, you can count for much more than half a gallon of evaporation. I'm usually close to 1.5 gallons. I start with 6.5 and end up with 5.

and - WELCOME to HBT!

 

[JimCharb]

I agree that you'll have much higher loss to evaporation if you boil in a larger pot, especially in MN! I had a similar issue with some of my 1st partial boils not being as hoppy as I'd hoped. Be patient...it was better with age! I recently switched to a 10 gal pot and have lost 1.5 to 2 gals in a 60 min boil (outside in MN winter). My understanding is that that will decrease in the summer a bit. No big deal...just start with more water. What's the worst thing that could happen? If ya don't have quite as much boil-off you'll have more beer!!

 

[hophacker]

Hey all,

Just to bring some closure to this thread.
The beer in question did get a bit better with age, but still contained too much of an undesired malty body that I don't believe was the aim of the recipe (It was a Northern Brewer clone kit).
I did end up solving this problem in my last few batches. Here's what I believe fixed it:

• Boiling all 5 gallons at once (actually 5.5, counting on about 1 gallon of evaporation with .5 gallons cold water to leave in the primary for splash aeration). It's a lot harder to cool but I believe the difference is very noticeable.
• No boilovers or scorching the bottom of the pot with malt extract. I was pouring malt extract directly into the boil previously, which created boilovers easily and almost always scorched the bottom. I believe this has negative contributions to the body of the beer although I certainly can't speak to the chemistry myself.

 

[hophacker]

Hophacker, you said these were in the bottle for a week, how long were they in the primary/secondary?

Primary: 14 days
Secondary: ~21 days

 

[LimerickBrewCo]

Give it at least two more weeks before you judge how good a beer it is. I just had a ryePA that I thought was okay, drinkable but definitely not good and had a weird aftertaste. I let a few sit in the fridge for a week waiting until I could get up to my LHBS for the guy there (who's a certified beer judge) to taste it and tell me what a did wrong. He poured it and looked at me like I was crazy, said it tasted great and poured me some. The aftertaste was gone and it really was very good.

Moral of the story, give it some time. One week in the bottle is not indication of where this beer will be when it's truly "ready."