Not really, but sulfate can accentuate hops. (Careful, though - some feel that certain hops, especially Continental hops, shouldn't be accentuated with sulfate.)
What am I doing wrong? Weak, boring beer.
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Not really, but sulfate can accentuate hops. (Careful, though - some feel that certain hops, especially Continental hops, shouldn't be accentuated with sulfate.)
harry_the_face
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When you say your fermentation temp is 65 are you referring to the temp of the fermenter or the room the fermenter is in?
michaelzero
Member
Good point. On the last brew the room was 65F, this time of year it's 68.
michaelzero
Member
You mean to eliminate it from the equation?
Will I have to add anything back in? Yeast nutrient? And should I adjust the mash pH?
The "primer" was linked earlier in the thread. If you check that out, starting with RO or distilled water, you'll be in good shape. Small additions of various things (calcium chloride, gypsum, acid malt, etc), but if you don't want to go through the work of adjusting your own tap water or tailoring water specifically for a certain beer, then it'll do you just fine.
I admittedly haven't read your water report although someone mentioned it being fairly soft, which is good. If there's chloramine/chlorine in there, hit it with some potassium metabisulfite (campden tablets) and then go from there. I had an off flavor in all my beers made with tap water until I started treating for chloramine/chlorine. Vegetal and dull wasn't it, more of a harsh plasticy medicinal flavor.
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If you want to really get into water chemistry (and it is TOTALLY worth it), the Palmer book "Water" will get you on track. I read it, and it pretty much revolutionized my brewing.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0937381993/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0937381993/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
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kombat
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I bought that book and started to read it, but I found it very technical, and seems to assume a basic level of chemistry that I just don't have. He dives right into using terminology without explaining what it is, or why it's important. As a result, I found it a really difficult read. I was hoping for a book that would start with the fundamentals, assuming no knowledge at all, and that's not what "Water" is, IMHO.
The way you describe your beer in your original post suggests to me that it seems thin. If that is the case, consider your mash temperature from 66 C (about 150 F) is fine, especially for the style, but if you mash a little warmer (say 68 C) your beer will have a little more body.
Also, you mention you aren't getting a real rigorous boil -- that can affect hop utilization significantly, especially if you are using cones instead of pellets.
Also, you really want to start checking your mash pH -- even if it is just with the test strips, which are inexpensive.
Also, you mention you aren't getting a real rigorous boil -- that can affect hop utilization significantly, especially if you are using cones instead of pellets.
Also, you really want to start checking your mash pH -- even if it is just with the test strips, which are inexpensive.
This may be obvious, but there's really no need to adjust the pH of the water you start with. It's the mash pH you should be concerned with. Yesterday I started reading the Water book referenced above and this is one of the first guiding principles covered.
The pH of your water does not give any indication of the water's ability to buffer any additions you make to adjust the pH.
Make sense?
michaelzero
Member
It does make sense, although I sort of assumed you just kept adjusting until you hit your desired pH. Also, if acidic sparge water is desired, then surely changing the pH of all your brewing water is an easier solution?
In my reading of sparge acidity it seems that maybe I'm also sparging too much? On my last brew I didn't hit my pre-boil volume from my first runnings and first sparge, so sparged another couple of times - possibly with negative results. I wonder in this case if I should have simply topped off my kettle to hit preboil volume.
I have had good luck with straight r o water. I use yeast nutrient as a matter of course, regardless of the water. I adjust ph with a teaspoon of lactic acid in the mash water...but at this point id say don't overthink it, just use straight r o water and see where things stand. The difference from a bit of acid or a teaspoon of salts won't be drastically different from straight r o water...those things are more like fine tuning imho.
barleywhore69
Well-Known Member
If you make all of these changes at once, you may never figure out what was causing the problems. Change one thing, compare. Change another thing, compare. Or just start over with the new suggestions and work from there I guess.
In my book, if the quality of the beer is unacceptable and there's no desire to return to it, no problem making wholesale changes. Single variable changes are either for learning the impact of those variables independent of the beer (say learn a new ingredient profile) or when something's good already and you're looking to tweak small things to improve it even more.
michaelzero
Member
I'm with you. If I change everything I mentioned and the beer tastes good then I'll just keep repeating those steps. I'll have the same grain bill and yeast strain, so at least those are constant.
RO water wasn't an option for me - no suppliers of the water or equipment was too expensive. So I've gone with an under bench carbon filter for Chlorine.
I'll report back in 2 - 3 weeks!
Everyone always jumps to water chemistry, in which I do believe makes a differance in a beer. There was no mention of your gravity readings unless I missed it.
michaelzero
Member
Expected OG: 1.052
Actual OG: 1.045
FG 1.008
But this taste issue has been across lots of batches - from my days making kits, through extract, and now BIAB.
lawlslawls
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how long is your boil? if you're not getting a very vigorous boil, then you might want to boil for longer. try boiling for at least 90 minutes; the boil is very important for melanoidin production
google Maillard reactions for more info
google Maillard reactions for more info
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Yeah... it just made me want to sleep... and I am a voracious reader most of the time.
michaelzero
Member
Reviving an old thread! My brother just let me try some of his efforts and they're amazing! Different city, so different water... but... he thinks his secret is using a glass carboy, not plastic! Does anyone have thoughts on this?
Does plastic let infection get in if you aren't careful through tiny scratches?
Does plastic let infection get in if you aren't careful through tiny scratches?
Singletrack
Because it's judgement that defeats us.
It's not the glass. He just doesn't want to share the secret.
michaelzero
Member
Haha, brother rivalry. He did actually say "oh this is just some left over bits and pieces I threw in".
Frilock
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I'm doubtful those tiny scratches would be enough to worry about for an infection. If talking clear plastic, the only thing I can think of would be different would be the way the light might refract (something to do with the hops) or that it might let in slightly more oxygen during fermentation. I don't think either of those would make any significant impact unless you're leaving your beer in there for...a long time.
The fermentation vessel has little or nothing to do with how your beer turns out. Yes, small scratches in the plastic can shelter infections, but if that was your problem, you'd know. I've been using the same bucket for over 10 years without an infection or off-flavors.
100% incorrect.
It has been very well established that fermenter material and design has a substantial impact on the character of the beer. Short stout square fermenters tend to produce more esters (hence the use in English brewing). Large, tall, and narrow (relative) cylindroconicals tend to suppress them (hence why pro brewers often ferment the same beer warmer than homebrewers). And the impacts increase dramatically with batch size.
In a normal 5 gallon batch, you're right, the impact is small enough that you'll likely not taste it. But that doesn't mean it's not there.
However, once it comes to long aging time, it can make a big difference. The oxygen permeability of a plastic bucket is ~20 times as high as a carboy (with the glass slightly less permeable than a Better Bottle or the like). It can make the difference between a balanced sour beer and a vinegar bomb. Or the difference between pleasant sherry aged notes in a Barleywine, or paper, cardboard, and soy sauce.
I guess I meant to say plastic or glass doesn't matter. There are plenty of threads to debate the relative merits of carboys vs. buckets -- I don't want to go into that here. My point obviously was that that is not the source of the OP's problem.
I was referring to primary fermentation, of course, not extended aging. When I age my beer for extended periods, which isn't often, I use a keg, not a fermenter.
I was referring to primary fermentation, of course, not extended aging. When I age my beer for extended periods, which isn't often, I use a keg, not a fermenter.
GCPHomebrew
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Michaelzero, I may be I. The minority, but infection issues are a myth. Good beer comes from good water proper temp(no your basement isn't cool enough you need a temp controlled chamber or a swamp cooler) 2 packages of yeast, aeration, proper hit break(followed buy at least 60minutws of boil time) and a good cold break. Being clean is important but I've found all my bad batches came from not doing one ore more of the before mentioned items.
Michigan_Wolfman
Well-Known Member
If you're using a plastic fermenting bucket and it's scratched on the inside, you certainly run the risk of introducing nasty stuff into your brew. There are beer spoiling bacteria that can survive inside the crevices of said scratches and not even the strongest sanitizer will get rid of them. If you've noticed you're turning out some majorly funky beer lately, it would be a good idea to invest in a new brewing bucket or step up to a glass carboy. Although carboys are heavier than buckets and a bit more pricey, they have the advantage of not being easily scratched and creating a hiding place for all the beer spoiling bacteria that want to hitch a ride into your brew.
I've always been skeptical of this. Can someone help me understand how it is possible to expose a scratched surface to something like Starsan and it not get sanitized just like a smooth surface? Is it that the scratches somehow prevent the sanitizer from making contact with the bacteria?
The easiest way I know to explain is that yes, scratches can stop cleaners and sanitizes from getting down in the crevices of the scratches. There is a lengthy explainantion if you google it, but simplified it's kinda like serface tension that creates a little air gap and stops the goodies from getting in and killing the baddies.
I only use glass for long term aging (30 days or more).
The whole air permability of plastic vs glass? Well, it may be true but you will be hard pressed to find scientific evidence backing this, and even harder than that is to find proven data/formulas to calculate the air leakage rate. I take care of my plastics. Never use anything but plastic to stir, never use any type of abrasive cleaners or pads.
No doubt better equipment can make better beer. Processes still the number one factor. There are guys that win competitions all the time with just basic set ups. Not too long ago, friend of mine won a local beer contest with his aluminum boil kettles and plastic buckets. The only stainless steel he owns is the slotted cooking spoon he vorflofts with.
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