Westvleteren 12 clone competition & swap

[saq]

Everyone who participated and wants their scoresheets back please PM me your mailing information so I can return it all.
KingBrianI also keep in mind I need a shipping location for your bottle of Westvleteren 12.

 

[Bokonon]

Sorry I couldn't get my recipe info over in time. The 1st one I hand wrote and it got destroyed by UPS and then I forgot to send over another one. On saturday I was busy brewing 7.5bbl with my local club so I didn't see the messages till late.

#8921 was my "old"
#7132 was my "new"

My two were essentially the same beer but for the new I pulled off some of the wort and steeped specialty grains (and then boiled) and added those to the fermenter

I didn't have the best ingredients for it so I came up with something I thought would be good enough. Also I had pulled the fermenters out of the chest freezer to rack and then was called out of town so they ended up sitting in the garage when it was 90-105 outside so I'm sure that kicked up the yeast to work on whatever else they could.

The carbonation issue was probably due to the fact that I was in a rush to bottle the second batch of bottles from the keg since it was a really busy time when I had to send them off.


Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 11.00 gal
Boil Size: 15.97 gal
Estimated OG: 1.087 SG
Estimated Color: 20.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 33.8 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 120 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
16 lbs Best Malz Pilsner Malt (2.0 SRM) Grain 49.23 %
8 lbs 8.0 oz Great Western 2 Row Malt (2.0 SRM) Grain 26.15 %
3 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 10.77 %
1.70 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (60 min) Hops 19.7 IBU
2.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.40 %] (30 min) Hops 11.3 IBU
1.00 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00 %] (15 min) Hops 2.7 IBU
1.00 tbsp PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
4 lbs 8.0 oz Candi Syrup, Homemade Dark (100.0 SRM) Sugar 13.85 %
1 Pkgs Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) [Starter 3000 Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 28.00 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
75 min Mash In Add 8.75 gal of water at 164.8 F 151.0 F


Notes:
------
Will add sugars after 2-3 days of fermentation. Will adjust amount of sugars to get 1.090 gravity
One fermenter will get straight wort while the other will get an addition of a steeped tea with some combination of Caramunich, Biscuit, Aromatic, Special B

Made a 2L starter on 6/2. 6/5 stuck it in fridge. 6/6 decanted and added another 2L of wort on top
In chest freezer: old on the left, new on the right

6/7/09 5:45pm pitched yeast
6/9/09 3:00pm added 1 quart (2.5lbs) of homemade candi syrup to each fermenter. changed cooling set point to 75
6/9/09 8:00pm "old" fermenter blowing off a bit. cleaned top of bucket and airlock. temp control reading 69
6/10/09 8:40am temp control reading 71. both buckets blowing off
6/10/09 10:00pm temp control reading 72. both buckets blowing off. set control to heat to 75
6/11/09 1:45pm temp control reading 75. no blow off. set cool to 85 and heat to 82
6/12/09 9:30am temp control reading 79. no blow off.
6/13/09 11:00am temp control reading 81. no blow off. set cool to 79
7/21/09 Racked old into keg and 1 gal jug to get funked out. old FG = 1.012
8/27/09 Racked new into keg and 1 gal jug to get funked out (added innoculated oak cubes) FG=1.012

 

[kingoslo]

Saq: how gradual escalation from pitching temp to $82F* do you suggest? How many hours should this escalation take you think?

Thanks,
Marius

 

[saq]

kingoslo
Just let the yeast heat it up naturally, usually takes about 8-12 hours from 65f pitching temp.
Also, this thread is more about the competition Recipe kind of stuff should go over in the other Westvleteren thread

 

[kingoslo]

kingoslo
Just let the yeast heat it up naturally, usually takes about 8-12 hours from 65f pitching temp.
Also, this thread is more about the competition Recipe kind of stuff should go over in the other Westvleteren thread

I am sorry about the thread issue. I did not know. I will continue the discussion there.M

 

[babalu87]

Great thread with lots of good info.

I gotta ask though, what is the point of adding sugar after the boil has ended?
The only reason I could see is the beers arent drying out enough and the yeast would need a kick in the pants.
Nothing I've seen in this thread tells me there is an issue with the beers not finishing.

What happened to the Special B?
Wasnt there an addition of this at one point?
I know BLAM doesnt list Special B but depending on what the Monks are doing behind closed doors this could be one of the missing pieces.

I made candi sugar Saturday and brewed something similar to this over the weekend.
I'll keep an eye on this thread as the beer finishes up.

Here is my grain bill.

41.0 8.00 lbs. Pilsener Germany 1.037 2
41.0 8.00 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) Canada 1.036 2
2.6 0.50 lbs. Special B Malt Belgian 1.030 120
10.3 2.00 lbs. Candi Sugar (amber) Generic 1.046 75
5.1 1.00 lbs. Cane Sugar Generic 1.046 0

I toasted 1/2 pound each of pils and pale
Added all sugars at the start of the boil and boiled for two hours.
Mashed at 125 then 147 for 2 hours.

 

[saq]

You started in the wrong thread! We discuss these things as well as others in this thread
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/westvleteren-12-group-brew-swap-121429/

Short answer: Brew Like A Monk states directly from Brother Joris, head brewer at Westvleteren, they only use pale 2row and pilsner malt and sugar to achieve their magnificent flavor. The many times I have brewed the "Traditional" recipe it has come more or less exactly in line with the real thing. That being said the "New World" recipe is also nearly indistinguishable from the real thing too. It is replicating what the monks do with decoctions with specialty grain. Even though my New World recipe won this competition I personally prefer the Traditional recipe.
Also, the late additions of sugar are to keep some of the volatile flavors that the dark sugar has. I prefer to put it all in the boil kettle so that it dissolves completely. I tried it in the fermenter one time and found some unconverted in the trub. I don't think the Westmalle yeast needs help drying out if you get the temps properly.

 

[babalu87]

You started in the wrong thread! We discuss these things as well as others in this thread
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/westvleteren-12-group-brew-swap-121429/

Short answer: Brew Like A Monk states directly from Brother Joris, head brewer at Westvleteren, they only use pale 2row and pilsner malt and sugar to achieve their magnificent flavor. The many times I have brewed the "Traditional" recipe it has come more or less exactly in line with the real thing. That being said the "New World" recipe is also nearly indistinguishable from the real thing too. It is replicating what the monks do with decoctions with specialty grain. Even though my New World recipe won this competition I personally prefer the Traditional recipe.
Also, the late additions of sugar are to keep some of the volatile flavors that the dark sugar has. I prefer to put it all in the boil kettle so that it dissolves completely. I tried it in the fermenter one time and found some unconverted in the trub. I don't think the Westmalle yeast needs help drying out if you get the temps properly.

An exclamation point.............really?

Nobody knows what sugars the monks are actually using and without knowing that subtle additions of specialty grains might be just what you're looking for.

Have you brewed both a decoction version and an infusion mash version to see what differences (if any) are in the finished beer?

Also, the Westy monks probably get different yeast counts every time as they are relying on Westmalles yeast and that could be from more than one of Westmalles beers or be 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation.

 

[saq]

Yep. This thread was for the competition which is over. The other thread is more general recipe work and discussions on other aspects of making a westvleteren style quad.

Westmalle runs a full blown very sophisticated yeast laboratory similar to White Labs, they were one of the really early ones to master this delicate art. I'm sure the pitching rates for what Westvleteren gets are very consistent and most definitely not from one of their fermentation tanks.

I have done four Traditional Westvleteren brewings with D1 and D2 sugar, small decoctions and large decoctions. I think that a blend of 50% D1 and 50% D2 with two good sized decoctions is the way to perfect this recipe.

Other people in the competition did decoctions or infusions and were compared in the judging. You would have to read the other thread to see what peoples specifications were for their mash.
The whole point of this competition was to see what small differences contributed towards what flavors to try and perfect this beer, and we even had someone act as a control by submitting a totally off the wall recipe that wasn't anywhere close.

Those that did follow the recipe had strikingly similar beers with subtle differences, with the control beer being easily detectable as not tasting anything similar to the others. All of the beers were good and VERY similar to the real Westvleteren 12 which was tasted in the competition as well.

 

[KingBrianI]

saq, hate to keep bugging you via PM so I thought I'd post up here. Any idea on when you'll get the prize shipped out? I've been standing in my yard waiting for UPS every day since you told me you'd ship it and my neighbors are getting weirded out. It's been months since the competition!

 

[saq]

Sorry sorry delays excuses etc I know.
I'll be packing it up soon since I finally have a decent box I can put a single bottle in! I'll probably be scanning the judging sheets and emailing them out too.

 

[babalu87]

There is not a single mention of decoction in BLAM

 

[saq]

No, but they probably do. They admit they have some secrets they keep. Again, this point and many other are in the wonderful thread debating the merits of different ways to make great quads which can be found here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/westvleteren-12-group-brew-swap-121429/

However, this thread does remind me I totally want to host another Westvleteren 12/Quad comp. I'm sure I'll be able to procure two more bottles of the real thing (one for the judging and one for the winner) with the same format as last time. Say beginning of August? That leaves plenty of time to brew and age!

Who's in?

 

[babalu87]

Mines in the fermenter at 75 (brewed this past Sunday)
I went with "Rochefort" yeast though. After reading the characteristics of both "Rochefort" and "Westmalles" yeast (and the LHBS not having the Westmalle) I decided that they really arent that much different if the fermentation is kept under 75 degrees or so.

I guess this should be posted in the other thread but it is a bit odd that there is no mention at all of decoction..........?

"quote" on the yeast is because the strain could have changed a bit since Wyeast/White Labs got their original sources.

 

[juvinious]

No, but they probably do. They admit they have some secrets they keep. Again, this point and many other are in the wonderful thread debating the merits of different ways to make great quads which can be found here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/westvleteren-12-group-brew-swap-121429/

However, this thread does remind me I totally want to host another Westvleteren 12/Quad comp. I'm sure I'll be able to procure two more bottles of the real thing (one for the judging and one for the winner) with the same format as last time. Say beginning of August? That leaves plenty of time to brew and age!

Who's in?

So pretty much like last year, which was what around july? I'm totally in, I enjoyed the whole process, including the swap. Eager to get my score sheet back, though.

 

[Freezeblade]

I don't know if I can get around to brewing it in time. I've got thesis deadline around that time, then maybe moving. but I'd love to do version 2 of this.

 

[saq]

Everyones judging sheets have gone out. After looking at them yesterday I am again reminded at how good most of the beers were. Also, how similar yet different a lot of them were as well. I think for this year I will get someone to steward and have them randomly pick the lineup for the judging which will include the real Westvleteren 12 getting slipped into the mix. I should probably get some more judges too so I can open up the comp more, maybe I'll try to get one of the registered AHA homebrew clubs I'm in to host and make it a bigger deal

 

[Sigafoos]

Would it be kosher to resubmit the beer I already brewed? I'm going to get some carb tabs so it's not, y'know, completely flat and I'd like to see how that changes your perception (and also, I don't brew enough to justify making the same batch twice when I'll opnly have made like 3 beers in between)

(Yeah, I don't brew often )

 

[orangehero]

I'd love to get in on this if it's happing for 2010. I just bottled a batch of your new world recipe...tastes very promising.

 

[saq]

Doesn't look like its happening this year. I'm getting married in a month so I'm fairly busy for the next few months. Perhaps if we can drum up interest we'll have a Quad Comp next Spring, maybe I can register it with my club and get it to be an official AHA Club Only Comp, that would be awesome.

 

[Sigafoos]

If it's a COC then I'll have to compete against my club, and then I'll lose. So let's not do that.

And congrats, saq!

 

[KingBrianI]

Just don't believe him if he says he will send the winner a real westy 12!

 

[saq]

Just don't believe him if he says he will send the winner a real westy 12!

The real winner was me! JK I still have your bottle I intend on shipping out...