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Westvleteren 12 clone competition & swap

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Bokonon I didn't get any recipe sheets in your box. Could you email them to me? Displaced Masshole seems to be MIA. Should we continue without him?

oh shoot, I wrote them out by hand and sent them with the first package that UPS busted and in the rush to get the new bottles out I forgot to do the same. I'll put them together and get them over to you.

Like you mentioned in the CdT thread, maybe all the tasting notes and recipe info could be compiled for an article for zymurgy or BYO. If I had all the information I'd be willing to try to put an article together, or at least review/edit it
 
If I don't hear from Displaced Masshole by the end of the day tomorrow I think I am going to hold the judging this weekend. Friday night or Saturday afternoon.

Still on for this weekend? I keep forgetting to fill out another recipe sheet and email it to you. I'll get on that tonight.
 
I am so exited. I am going to brew Westvleteren 12 and 8 clone on xmas eve :)

Marius
 
How are you storing these? I tasted one tonight I've had in the fridge for a couple of weeks and it's slightly different from the one I had a week ago that hadn't been in the fridge for as long. I'm not sure how the real thing tastes, but mine is getting very smooth and creamy tasting. It begins a bit vinous and fruity on the palate but quickly transforms into dark chocolate and caramel. Finishes dry with a subtle and fitting lingering bitterness. Mouthfeel is rich and creamy. Carbonation seems right on. I think I'm going to have to brew this one again!
 
They are rich beers, but i would not characterize them as very smooth (although i like smooth beer :). )

Drink a rochefort 10, and you are within the right category, although the Westvleteren 12 and 8 are more dry than rochefort 10 and 8. There are naturally more differences, but I have always thought these beers have some intellectual similarities.

Pardon my English, I am from Europe.

I think this swap is a great initiative.M
 
I've had the rochefort 10, though I can't remember how it compares. I did try my westy 12 clone and a westmalle back to back a couple weeks ago. I preferred mine. Your English is perfect, what country in Europe are you from?
 
Thank you for your compliment :)

I am from Norway, it is somewhat similar to Canada, but much smaller. It is located next to Sweden. We are responsible for giving Mr Obama the Nobel Peace Prize :)

Westmalle is a nice beer :) I think what makes Rochefort 10 a decent comparison to westvleteren 12 is that they are heavily based on the results of yeast/sugar/fermentation temp. Westmalle beers, esp Westmalle dubbel, I think, may have a less of this feature.

You can send me one of your westvleteren clones for xmas, if you want :)

Marius
 
Ok, looks like the tasting is happening Saturday afternoon for sure. I have two confirmations from judges (one is BJCP certified) and another one thinks he can make it (also BJCP certified).
 
Forgot to answer your question earlier KingBrianI.

By the time of the comp the beers will have been in the fridge for about 2 weeks. While they were arriving they were at room temp which lately has been about 72f. Even if you were a little slow on carbonation before they were sent they should have finished off during waiting, and they will have settled out nicely with 2 weeks in the fridge.
 
Completed the Westvleteren competition a little while ago. The tastings were interesting, there were a lot of similarities among beers but also a lot of differences. Overall the only beers that didn't score well were two that were more or less flat. If they weren't flat they would have been very competitive and could have placed much better.
Also one of the judges dropped out at the last minute due to some complications so there were 3 judges.

I had one of the judges be the steward and pour the beers in the glasses for complete anonymity. I really didn't know who's beers where who's and the two I thought were mine ended up not being mine at all.
We did an initial judging of all beers on their own, with a best of show judging, and then judged the Westvleteren 12. By the time we drank the Westy 12 we had a pretty good idea of how the beers differed. One interesting note is that we also judged the Westy 12 to the same standards as the other beers and in came in 3rd place overall.

Interestingly the 3 BOS judged beers were also most like Westvleteren 12.

I will compile scoresheet information and send them out shortly. I also have flight information on the scoresheet and its also reflected below.

Without further ado here are the results.

Westvleteren 12 scored 122 points and was 9th in flight.

BOS: saq - New World recipe with 128 points total, 5th in flight
2nd place - KingBrianI - Traditional recipe with 123 points total, 3rd in flight
3rd place - Juvinious - Traditional recipe with 115 points (picked as the best of the 115 pointers) 6th in flight
2 way tie for 4th place - FreezeBlade and saq traditional recipe with 115 points (4th in flight and 7th in flight respectively)
5th place - Bokonon (did not get recipes from him) 103 points first in flight
6th place - Bokonon (did not get recipes from him) 87.5 points (no carb could have scored higher) 8th in flight
7th place - Sigafoos traditional 76 points (totally flat would have scored higher) 2nd in flight

I think all of the entries (including the flat ones) were great beers worth being proud of. As is they could be serious competition in any BJCP comp and with some tweaks they would be almost shoe-in's for placing. I am shocked that my new world recipe did so well as I figured it would come in last and I highly favored the traditional recipe over it in all of my personal side by side tastings.

Seeing as I already stated in the event of me taking first place the bottle of Westvleteren 12 will go to the next in line which would be KingBrianI. I'll get shipping info from you and hopefully get the beer of next week.
 
omg hax :'(

I kinda figured I wouldn't do too well. I didn't realize until just now, reading this, that I was supposed to pitch more yeast when I bottled and I didn't do that. So, you know, I'm a moron.

I'm going to have to enter the next HBT competition or something just to prove to people that I'm not some crap brewer. Except, you know, I probably am ;)
 
Oh snap, that's awesome! Can't wait for the tasting notes. And I really can't wait to get the real thing! Now the hard decision, do I drink it or put it away for a while to age.:D By the way, that beer didn't place in the HBT contest we just had. ;)
 
Congratulation to everyone!

Oh snap, that's awesome! Can't wait for the tasting notes. And I really can't wait to get the real thing! Now the hard decision, do I drink it or put it away for a while to age.:D By the way, that beer didn't place in the HBT contest we just had. ;)

Just drink it man, then go to the monastry next summer and have a whole lot :) M
 
That's a good idea! My fiancee has a class reunion in the netherlands next year anyway.:D Might as well hop over to Belgium.

That sound great!

Hire a car, go to Brugge or Oostend. There is a pub in Brugge, called Cambrinus located on Philipstockstraat, and they sell Westvleteren Blond, 8 and 12 (despite the ban) (check out their menu: http://www.cambrinus.eu/bierkaart.htm). But if you have the car, I would go to the town called Westvleteren too, there is a pub in the monastry called In de Vrede, they have good food and beer (westvleteren Blond through 12), but suck at english :) . Many breweries you can get guided tours which are ineteresting for us brewers. The guides gives us superficial information, and we get the pleasure in lecutring them in brewing :D

If you get a bicycle from the hotel, there are so many things to see around the city. Brugge is a medieval town. Very pretty. Oostend is more bathing/sunbathing orientated. These two cities are located next to eachother, aprox 30 mins drive, so you can go back and forth between them depending on yer mood.

I would stay away from the big cities, esp Antwerpen, in my opinion, they are not as nice.M
 
Damnit my computer died sometime yesterday so I wasn't able to check up on the results immediately. Congrads KingBrianI, interestingly iirc, your recipe was done with stepped sugar additions correct?
I was totally surprised that my traditional did the better of the both Saq's and Freeze's.
And more surprisingly is that Saq's new world recipe bested the traditional ones. All in all this was a fun run and I hope we get another swap/comp sometime next year and see how our process evolves.

:mug:
 
Damnit my computer died sometime yesterday so I wasn't able to check up on the results immediately. Congrads KingBrianI, interestingly iirc, your recipe was done with stepped sugar additions correct?
I was totally surprised that my traditional did the better of the both Saq's and Freeze's.
And more surprisingly is that Saq's new world recipe bested the traditional ones. All in all this was a fun run and I hope we get another swap/comp sometime next year and see how our process evolves.

:mug:

Thanks, I added the candi syrup at high krausen and the candi sugar a day later. I think what might have given my traditional a bit more complexity is that I did several large decoctions, whereas I think mostly everyone else did only a small mashout decoction. It will be interesting to see the tasting notes to see whether the difference was evident. Saq, do you plan on summarizing the findings from the different methods is some form? I think it would be very interesting to study.
 
KingBrianI,
Yes, I'm going to be pouring through the recipes today in addition to drinking some of the extra bottles we didn't get through at the competition (almost all only needed the one bottle with 3 judges).
Its going to be tough though, because there were so many similarities. All of them were fairly good representations of the style of Dark Strong Ale as compared to Westvleteren. That being said there were a lot of differences in body, flavor characteristics etc. I'll see if I can pull anything out of the recipe sheets.
 
KingBrianI,
Yes, I'm going to be pouring through the recipes today in addition to drinking some of the extra bottles we didn't get through at the competition (almost all only needed the one bottle with 3 judges).
Its going to be tough though, because there were so many similarities. All of them were fairly good representations of the style of Dark Strong Ale as compared to Westvleteren. That being said there were a lot of differences in body, flavor characteristics etc. I'll see if I can pull anything out of the recipe sheets.

Great, I look forward to seeing it. Drinking through the leftover bottles sounds like fun!:drunk:
 
Thanks, I added the candi syrup at high krausen and the candi sugar a day later. I think what might have given my traditional a bit more complexity is that I did several large decoctions, whereas I think mostly everyone else did only a small mashout decoction. It will be interesting to see the tasting notes to see whether the difference was evident. Saq, do you plan on summarizing the findings from the different methods is some form? I think it would be very interesting to study.

Well I went with a double decoction, though unfortunately screwed up and boiled for 90 mins and had to add additional sugar at high krausen to make up for the undershot OG.
But yeah I agree, I can only assume a heavy decoction schedule and 120 min boil are key to get the complexity in the beer which you managed to achieve. :)

I'll be interested also in his summary of findings, especially since he'll be mulling over the recipes while imbibing the remainder of the libation. :drunk:
 
Thanks, I added the candi syrup at high krausen and the candi sugar a day later. I think what might have given my traditional a bit more complexity is that I did several large decoctions, whereas I think mostly everyone else did only a small mashout decoction. It will be interesting to see the tasting notes to see whether the difference was evident. Saq, do you plan on summarizing the findings from the different methods is some form? I think it would be very interesting to study.

Well, I did a pretty big decoction on mine, from 122 to 146, then up to 156. although my protein rest was a bit long (it was my first decoct) so that might have screwed some stuff up. I would love to see tasting notes though.
 
I think one of the biggest indicators of flavor is going to be percentage of gravity by sugar. I did about 13% in my new world vs 17% in my traditional. Considering we don't know how much sugar they add this could be an important factor. Some of the entries did taste a little thin.
 
Ok, a couple of notes from reading through the recipe sheets and the score cards. I don't have Bokonon's entries so the summary is a little incomplete.

The good:
They were all very good examples of a westvleteren 12 style quadrupel. Aside from one flat one and one that didn't seem to carb up well they were without serious flaws.

The bad:
The differences aren't significantly pronounced and peoples entries are similar enough you could write all the variation between #1 and #8 to the brewers personal influences and minor things like water profile, fermentation temperature and sugar recipe.

What we learned

Aroma

Not much to say here as everyones beer (even the flat ones didn't do too bad) had some great aromas. If anything the Westvleteren was par for the course. I think the recipe is pretty hard to do wrong (barring defects/infections) in the aroma department. ALL of them had some complex malts with significant and wonderful cocoa notes. Lots had some dried/candied red/brown fruit, and some had a nice candied/burnt banana. Two had some vegetal/bean-ish notes which weren't bad, as the Westvleteren actually had this character as well. Not sure what causes this, but I think everyone did well here.

Appearance

Color
Most of the entries were lighter than the real thing. As I suspected 80 SRM is insufficient, even with putting all 3lbs of candi sugar in at the beginning of the boil. I believe my 3rd batch (which went into the Cuvee de Tomme project) was nearly spot on and that had 3lbs of 160 SRM D2 sugar. My New World recipe (26 srm) was close but still a bit lighter. One of Bokonon's entries (probably new world) was darker than mine and really close to the darkness of the real thing. If you want to come close to the "real thing" shoot for 30-32 SRM minimum.
However, they were all MORE THAN sufficiently dark for entry as a 18E and I didn't feel that any of them were too light. Your personal preference here.

Clarity
We ran the gamut here, some hazy entries, some fairly clear entries and two nearly brilliant entries and nobody used finings. The real thing was pretty clear despite is considerably dark color. Only the really hazy ones probably got a ding for being too hazy, but they didn't get dinged as badly as ones with carbonation problems.

Carbonation
For the most part everyone scored perfect here aside from two with issues. The real thing was fairly inline with those that entered beers as 2.8-3 vol/CO2. Interestingly my New World I did at 2.6 vol/co2 and it did well enough

Flavor

Bitterness
This varied little and more or less close enough. That being said a lot of the entries were 4-5 months old at this point. If you want it drinkable younger maybe cut the bitterness down to about 30-32 IBU. Again your personal preference.
Interesting note: A few people had 120 minute boils & hop additions for their traditional and KingBrianI had a 60 minute hop addition. I don't think it mattered at all.

Hoppiness
This style is not supposed to have any real noticable hop characters and nobodies did. Whats interesting about this is that KingBrianI had some 15 and 0 minute hop additions whereas most other people's last hop additions were 25-45. Again giving it 4-5 months and the low IBUs is going to render this aspect moot. You could make your brewday easier by having less additions, maybe not even bothering with finishing hops.

Overall Flavor

Some were a little lighter in malt flavor/biscuit/bread but none got too heavy, I think the amount of sugar is part of the deal here. We ranged from 12-19% of the gravity from sugar, though its hard to just look and see what peoples efficiencies were. Some very un-scientific measurements based on the data we have makes me think somewhere in the middle is a nice balance of malt/sugar flavors and body. A good number of the beers were similar to Westvleteren, with some with more malt/body and some with less malt/body. I think 14-16% is a good target, and you can probably get away with more sugar if you do a big decoction on a traditional recipe.

All had a good amount of esters (within style) but some were a little less than Westvleteren and I think one got dinged for being "too clean". On the recipe sheets I'm also noticing a near correlation in lower fermentation temperatures with reduced esters comments. First place had a fermentation temp of 82, second place had a fermentation temp of 84, and third place had a fermentation temp of 81. A lot of others only got to 80. I think this aspect is pretty important and 82-84f is probably the ideal target.

As with the aroma, all of the beers had a very significant nice cocoa note.

Mouthfeel
As mentioned in the Overall Flavor aspect, some were a little lighter in body and richness than Westvleteren 12, but were well represented for the style . However none of them were cloyingly sweet nor too dry and fairly well balanced overall. Hard to say here as the grainbills and proportions are all fairly similar. Given that a new world recipe did so well against so many traditionals I think that some residual body from the grain must be at play, large decoctions will help this aspect but must be balanced with the amount of sugar.

Overall
Overall this was a really good competition and project, with most people's scores being 38 or higher which is "Excellent" by the BJCP. I think everyone that participated and didn't have issues have beers that are worthy of any competition, and the ones that did have issues were fairly minor and could be easily fixed.

My takeaway from this is that both the new world and traditional recipes can get pretty damn close! I am glad I decided to do a new world recipe as I feel it provided valuable input for judging, but will probably continue to brew the traditional recipe in the future. When I do The Pious #3 (last one didn't count because it went into the bourbon barrel for souring right away) I will go with the same recipe I have posted in the other Westvleteren thread but adjust the sugar to 15% of grist.
 
Here is what I think The Pious #3 recipe will be and I think it will be pretty damn close to the real thing.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 8.27 gal
Estimated OG: 1.092 SG
Estimated Color: 33.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 35.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
8.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM) Grain 42.11 %
8.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 42.11 %
1.00 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (90 min) Hops 25.7 IBU
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [4.10 %] (20 min) Hops 7.0 IBU
0.50 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [2.80 %] (20 min)Hops 2.4 IBU
3.00 lb Dark 2 Belgian Candi Syrup (160.0 SRM) Sugar 15.79 %
1 Pkgs Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) Yeast-Ale
1lbs sugar added to beginning of boil, 1lbs added to last 5, 1lbs added in secondary.

Mash Schedule: Decoction Mash, Double
Total Grain Weight: 16.00 lb
----------------------------
Decoction Mash, Double
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
10 min Protein Rest Add 32.00 qt of water at 137.5 F 132.0 F
30 min Saccharification Decoct 8.79 qt of mash and boil it 151.0 F
30 min Saccharification Decoct 4.85 qt of mash and boil it 159.0 F
 

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