Welcome Beginning Brewers!

[bigboogieman]

I'm getting ready to brew my first batch (Torpedo clone extract kit from AIH). But I didn't get a wort cooler because people seem to be having success by just sealing up the kettle and letting it sit overnight (a mutation of the no-chill technique, where you don't even bother transferring to a cube), and that sounds like an appealing alternative to me.

So here's where I'm looking for advice. At flameout (end of the 60 minute boil), I'm supposed to add 1 oz of hops, then cool with a wort chiller, then transfer to the fermenter. What I was thinking I could do instead is turn off the heat after 60 minutes, add the flameout hops (to the hop bag that I had been adding the hops to during the boil), and let it sit for 10 more minutes to kind of simulate what would be happening to the hops if I had added them and immediately started cooling it down with a wort chiller. Then after 10 minutes, remove the hop bag, seal up the kettle, and let it sit over night to cool.

Does anyone think that this would or would not have approximately the same effect as adding those hops and then cooling it down quickly? And does 10 minutes sound like the right amount of time? I'm just guessing that after 10 minutes with a wort chiller, the temperature is low enough that it's not really extracting anything else from the hops, so this might be more or less equivalent.

 

[IslandLizard]

So here's where I'm looking for advice. At flameout (end of the 60 minute boil), I'm supposed to add 1 oz of hops, then cool with a wort chiller, then transfer to the fermenter. What I was thinking I could do instead is turn off the heat after 60 minutes, add the flameout hops (to the hop bag that I had been adding the hops to during the boil), and let it sit for 10 more minutes to kind of simulate what would be happening to the hops if I had added them and immediately started cooling it down with a wort chiller. Then after 10 minutes, remove the hop bag, seal up the kettle, and let it sit over night to cool.

The big difference is that with a chiller you'd be chilling the wort at flameout, so those flameout hops will be in there while the temps drop from 210F to around 160-140F during those first 10 minutes, and ongoing.

With your proposed method they'd stay closer to 200F for those 10 minutes, and may not drop below 140F for another hour or longer. So your wort and thus beer will be more bitter, and may not have as much of the intended flavor and aroma as the recipe was designed to have.

Maybe better to wait until your wort has chilled to around [Edited] 170-160F and then add them. And leave them in for the rest of the natural chilling time.

 

[bigboogieman]

The big difference is that with a chiller you'd be chilling the wort at flameout, so those flameout hops will be in there while the temps drop from 210F to around 160-140F during those first 10 minutes, and ongoing.

With your proposed method they'd stay closer to 200F for those 10 minutes, and may not drop below 140F for another hour or longer. So your wort and thus beer will be more bitter, and may not have as much of the intended flavor and aroma as the recipe was designed to have.

Maybe better to wait until your wort has chilled to around [Edited] 170-160F and then add them. And leave them in for the rest of the natural chilling time.

OK, I get the part about the extra 10 minutes at 200F might add extra bitterness instead of intended flavor/aroma. But I didn't understand "and may not drop below 140F for another hour or longer." Why would that part matter, when I was going to remove all of the hops after 10 minutes?

The reason I was thinking of putting in the flameout hops at flameout and then yanking them out early, is that I wanted to keep the temperature up so that the wort would remain sterile until I sealed up the kettle. Is 160F-170F enough to keep it sterile? Because in that case your suggestion makes sense to me. Otherwise, might I have better luck with 5 extra bonus minutes instead of 10?

 

[IslandLizard]

OK, I get the part about the extra 10 minutes at 200F might add extra bitterness instead of intended flavor/aroma. But I didn't understand "and may not drop below 140F for another hour or longer." Why would that part matter, when I was going to remove all of the hops after 10 minutes?

The reason I was thinking of putting in the flameout hops at flameout and then yanking them out early, is that I wanted to keep the temperature up so that the wort would remain sterile until I sealed up the kettle. Is 160F-170F enough to keep it sterile? Because in that case your suggestion makes sense to me. Otherwise, might I have better luck with 5 extra bonus minutes instead of 10?

Removing the hops after 10 minutes won't stop the extracted hop oils from isomerizing in the still very hot wort. The hotter the wort the more alpha acid isomerization (bittering reactions) will occur. They slow down at lower temps until about 140F where they'll about stop.

Don't forget, we don't sterilize the wort, we merely pasteurize it, even at 210F for an hour. Moreover, when the wort cools, it contracts, so air (and bugs) will be sucked into your kettle, there's not much you can do to stop that, and may not be an issue since you'll be moving it to a fermenter and pitch yeast. But leave it like that for 1-3 days without pitching yeast, and it will start to ferment "all by itself" aka spontaneous fermentation, back in the days, before Pasteur.

Typical no-chill is done by transferring the near boiling wort to a semi-flexible (plastic) container (think of a bladder, cubitainer, etc.) that can be sealed, and will shrink while the wort cools. No air can go inside. But the wort stays hot for a long, long time, and any late hop additions will add bitterness. The 60' hops won't because they're about depleted after an hour boil. Similar for 30' or 20' boil (kettle) hops. But for late kettle hops, 15-10' and after, they definitely will add bitterness, while flavor, and more so, aroma will be lost.

 

[jrgtr42]

... I am curious if this batch is ruined or if it will be just a little more hoppy flavored.

Thank You!

Just to be accurate - it's actually very difficult to truly ruin a batch, unless you're using filthy equipment, no cleaning / sanitation, and so on.
Most often it's not exactly what was intended. Your adding hops a bit to early is very low on the scale of things to affect the outcome. Something like fermenting very hot (80s - 90s,) is pretty high on the scale. |(not counting using kveik yeast.)

 

[ncbrewer]

Removing the hops after 10 minutes won't stop the extracted hop oils from isomerizing in the still very hot wort. The hotter the wort the more alpha acid isomerization (bittering reactions) will occur. They slow down at lower temps until about 140F where they'll about stop.

I may have a misconception about this – or maybe not? My understanding is that the alpha acids aren’t soluble, and the oils are aromatic. So there would be nothing left in the wort to isomerize once the hops are removed. I don’t remove hops during the boil, so I’ve never put this theory to the test. Could you elaborate on the idea of hop oils continuing to isomerize.

 

[IslandLizard]

Could you elaborate on the idea of hop oils continuing to isomerize.

Alpha Acids may not be soluble in water/wort, but they're likely suspended. Otherwise products like Hop Shots wouldn't work.

https://yakimavalleyhops.com/collections/advanced-hop-products/products/co2-hop-extract

 

[chazam]

How long would you guys carbonate witbier in a keg?

 

[doug293cz]

How long would you guys carbonate witbier in a keg?

Are you asking "how long to carbonate before serving," or are you planning to remove the beer from the keg after carbonating?

The answer to the first question depends on the process you use for force carbonation. If you use "set and forget" with the pressure set per a carbonation chart and the beer at serving temp, wait two weeks at least. Carbonation probably won't be fully complete until after about three weeks, but shouldn't be too bad before that. There are also a couple of burst mode methods that are unlikely to over-carbonate the beer (which is a PITA if you end up doing.) The first is to cool the beer to serving temp, apply the chart pressure for temp and carb level, then shake or roll the keg until you can't hear CO2 flowing in the regulator - repeat a couple times after a half hour wait. The second is to cool the beer to serving temp, apply 30 psi CO2 for 36 hours, and then drop the pressure to the chart pressure for temp and carb level. Beer should be drinkable after 3 days. Shaking or rolling at elevated pressures is the easiest way to over-carbonate, and is not recommended (although some brewers do it anyway because they have no patience.)

In most cases, beers will improve with a couple of weeks in the keg (the biggest exception is very hoppy beers that were kegged without scrupulous O2 exposure avoidance), so the accelerated burst methods pretty much allow you to drink carbonated green beer.

Brew on

 

[chazam]

The first one was what I ment. Two weeks it is then, thanks.


7:50
Do I have to do that before racking? I sure didn't.
I just cleaned the keg, siphoned in the beer through filter, attached the gas, noticed four hours late it wasn't attached properly.

This time I try to succeed with my beer. When doing first 2020 batch I guess the volatility in temperature messed up the taste of the beer and second time the yeast got pitched into too high temperature. Both times the gas didn't get into the keg (there's a lifting mechanism in the ball lock that I didn't notice). Words cannot describe how frustrating this is but I'm persistant.

 

[doug293cz]

The first one was what I ment. Two weeks it is then, thanks.


7:50
Do I have to do that before racking? I sure didn't.
I just cleaned the keg, siphoned in the beer through filter, attached the gas, noticed four hours late it wasn't attached properly.

This time I try to succeed with my beer. When doing first 2020 batch I guess the volatility in temperature messed up the taste of the beer and second time the yeast got pitched into too high temperature. Both times the gas didn't get into the keg (there's a lifting mechanism in the ball lock that I didn't notice). Words cannot describe how frustrating this is but I'm persistant.

That video is a lousy way of purging a keg prior to racking. If you can't do a closed transfer from fermenter to keg, you might as well not pre-purge the keg. Just opening the lid, after the purge, let's too much oxygen in, if your are really trying to minimize O2 exposure. Just rack to the keg, making sure that the fill tube goes all the way to the bottom of the keg so that you don't splash around your beer while filling the keg. After filling you need to purge the air (especially O2) from the headspace, both to get proper carbonation (the carbonation charts and calculators assume that the headspace is 100% CO2 when determining required pressure, and any air will reduce the actual CO2 pressure in the keg), and to minimize the O2 in the head space which will rapidly absorb into your beer, and cause flavor degradation over time. For best results, you want to purge the headspace 12 - 13 times at 30 psi, before setting the pressure for carbonation. For lightly hopped beers, a half dozen purge cycles should be sufficient. One purge cycle consists of pressurizing the keg, shutting off the CO2, and pulling the PRV just until it stops hissing. If you want to do heavily hopped beers, you should explore the Bottling/Kegging forum for information on keg purging using liquid or fermentation CO2, closed transfer, and other O2 control topics. Further discussion should go in the Bottling/Kegging forum.

Brew on

 

[Toxxyc]

I don't do that either. I clean the keg with SPC if it's specifically dirty (usually every 2nd or 3rd fill), otherwise I just rinse it with a hosepipe outside on the lawn. Then it gets filled to the top with StarSan and I use CO2 to slowly push the StarSan out. Then I know there's nothing but CO2 inside, so no need to purge anything. I have a bucket full of StarSan always on hand, so it's a simple way to do this. I siphon it into the keg as well so I know the siphon I then use a bit later to get the beer into the keg is also sanitized.

 

[MikeCo]

If you can't do a closed transfer from fermenter to keg, you might as well not pre-purge the keg.

I disagree with this. I think purging still keeps more oxygen out of the keg than not purging at all with an open transfer, but you need to do the transfer quickly to limit the oxygen ingress. If you start and complete the transfer quickly after opening the keg lid, the beer will push the gas out of the keg before much mixing can occur.

 

[chazam]

What do you think of this transfer?


If that's what I go for in my next batch, I need to invest in bouncer inline filter and pvc-tap (and drill & rubber seal it to my fermenter bin).

 

[doug293cz]

What do you think of this transfer?


If that's what I go for in my next batch, I need to invest in bouncer inline filter and pvc-tap (and drill & rubber seal it to my fermenter bin).

He's got the basic idea, but there are a lot of small things he gets wrong. The biggest mistake he appears to make is not purging the filter he's using with CO2. That filter contains enough O2 to ruin an NEIPA in short order. Proper O2 exclusion techniques are difficult to do well, because you are aiming for less than 100 parts per billion of O2 in the kegged beer. O2 exclusion is not a topic suitable for discussion in a beginners' forum, so please don't continue to discuss here. Go over to the Bottling/Kegging forum where this topic has been heavily discussed. There may also be some cold side O2 exclusion information in the Low Oxygen Brewing sub-forum (but that is mostly about hot side O2 exclusion.)

Brew on

 

[chazam]

He's got the basic idea, but there are a lot of small things he gets wrong. The biggest mistake he appears to make is not purging the filter he's using with CO2. That filter contains enough O2 to ruin an NEIPA in short order. Proper O2 exclusion techniques are difficult to do well, because you are aiming for less than 100 parts per billion of O2 in the kegged beer. O2 exclusion is not a topic suitable for discussion in a beginners' forum, so please don't continue to discuss here. Go over to the Bottling/Kegging forum where this topic has been heavily discussed. There may also be some cold side O2 exclusion information in the Low Oxygen Brewing sub-forum (but that is mostly about hot side O2 exclusion.)

Brew on

I'm waiting for my mind to blow up in that side of the forum.

 

[chazam]

How much does the headspace affect beer taste? I've been trying to ferment 7-14 liters of wort in a 25-30 liter plastic fermenter. I thought the off-flavor came from not doing a close transfer to a keg (for carbonation) but now I'm thinking it's that one and the high headspace. How is headspace percentage calculated anyway?

 

[doug293cz]

How much does the headspace affect beer taste? I've been trying to ferment 7-14 liters of wort in a 25-30 liter plastic fermenter. I thought the off-flavor came from not doing a close transfer to a keg (for carbonation) but now I'm thinking it's that one and the high headspace. How is headspace percentage calculated anyway?

The fermentation of a mid OG beer (around 1.050) will generate about 20 - 25 liters of CO2 for each liter of beer being fermented. Your headspace will rapidly be purged of most of the O2 shortly after the start of active fermentation. This headspace purging should be adequate for many styles of beer, but maybe not for very hoppy beers (which are the most O2 sensitive.) If you are trying to do very hoppy beers, you should probably get a fermenter with less headspace.

The previous paragraph applies for primary fermentation. For secondary fermentation, which you should NOT do, except in special cases (fruited beers, large beers that will be aged, etc.) headspace volume should be as small as possible.

Percent headspace is calculated as:

% Headspace = 100% * (Fermenter Volume - Beer Volume) / Beer Volume​

​

Brew on

 

[chazam]

The fermentation of a mid OG beer (around 1.050) will generate about 20 - 25 liters of CO2 for each liter of beer being fermented. Your headspace will rapidly be purged of most of the O2 shortly after the start of active fermentation. This headspace purging should be adequate for many styles of beer, but maybe not for very hoppy beers (which are the most O2 sensitive.) If you are trying to do very hoppy beers, you should probably get a fermenter with less headspace.

The previous paragraph applies for primary fermentation. For secondary fermentation, which you should NOT do, except in special cases (fruited beers, large beers that will be aged, etc.) headspace volume should be as small as possible.

Percent headspace is calculated as:

% Headspace = 100% * (Fermenter Volume - Beer Volume) / Beer Volume​

​

Brew on

So say it's 28 liters that the fermenter can fill, 8 liters of wort...
((28-8) / 8 ) * 100
= 250%

really?

 

[doug293cz]

So say it's 28 liters that the fermenter can fill, 8 liters of wort...
((28-8) / 8 ) * 100
= 250%

really?

Yes.

Brew on

 

[Toxxyc]

Yup. There's a reason breweries are looking into repurposing the CO2 they produce during fermentation. It's because fermentation produces A LOT of CO2. The chemical reaction for it is (and I'm posting it here because I've never really looked into it myself, so it's awesome):

C6H12O6 (glucose) → 2 C2H5OH (ethanol) + 2 CO2 (carbon dioxide)

Now glucose has a weight of, let's round it down, 180 grams per mol. 1 mol is 6.02214076×10²³ molecules. That means for each mol of glucose, we produce 2 mol CO2 as per reaction above.

The mass of CO2 per mol is (according to a Google search) 44 grams. That means for every 180 grams of sugar, we produce 88 grams of CO2.

Now if we say that you're fermenting a beer at 1.040, that solution contains around 103 grams of sugar per liter. If you have 23 litres, that's ~2.37kg of sugar.

Doing the quick math, that means we're producing 1.9kg of CO2 with the fermentation of this beer. That's almost a full tank of CO2.

Can anyone confirm the above for me, perhaps? Keeping in mind it's a very simplified set of calculations all round?

 

[doug293cz]

Yup. There's a reason breweries are looking into repurposing the CO2 they produce during fermentation. It's because fermentation produces A LOT of CO2. The chemical reaction for it is (and I'm posting it here because I've never really looked into it myself, so it's awesome):

C6H12O6 (glucose) → 2 C2H5OH (ethanol) + 2 CO2 (carbon dioxide)

Now glucose has a weight of, let's round it down, 180 grams per mol. 1 mol is 6.02214076×10²³ molecules. That means for each mol of glucose, we produce 2 mol CO2 as per reaction above.

The mass of CO2 per mol is (according to a Google search) 44 grams. That means for every 180 grams of sugar, we produce 88 grams of CO2.

Now if we say that you're fermenting a beer at 1.040, that solution contains around 103 grams of sugar per liter. If you have 23 litres, that's ~2.37kg of sugar.

Doing the quick math, that means we're producing 1.9kg of CO2 with the fermentation of this beer. That's almost a full tank of CO2.

Can anyone confirm the above for me, perhaps? Keeping in mind it's a very simplified set of calculations all round?

Your analysis has several errors that lead to about a 2X over estimate of CO2 produced. First the SG is a measure of the amount of "extract" in the wort. Extract is about 90% carbohydrates (sugar, dextrins, and soluble starches), and the balance is proteins, lipids, and other minor components. Not all of the carbohydrates are fermentable - only the simple sugars. If you take all of the above into account, the CO2 produced is lower than your estimate.

I did a more rigorous analysis here. The result was that 20L of 1.050 SG wort fermented down to 1.010 had 1.71 kg of sugar converted to ethanol and CO2. The weight of the CO2 created was 0.878 kg, which is equivalent to 439 L. This was the basis of my statement above that "The fermentation of a mid OG beer (around 1.050) will generate about 20 - 25 liters of CO2 for each liter of beer being fermented."

Finally, further discussion of this subtopic is not appropriate in a beginners' thread, so please let's get back to beginners' questions.

Brew on

 

[Toxxyc]

I thought I had a mistake somewhere, but the gist of it is that a hell of a lot of CO2 is produced. Thanks for that!

 

[chazam]

Would cold crashing at 6c (43 fahrenheit) be low enough? How long should I coldcrash? I'm using a cold room that is used by everyone and nobody shouldn't... adjust the temperature. I was thinking about having my fermzilla at 6c for 2-3 days and then bring it outside on Friday or Saturday for maybe 10-12 hours. Although, I don't know does the change in outdoor temperature affect the taste. Thoughts?

 

[cmac62]

Would cold crashing at 6c (43 fahrenheit) be low enough? How long should I coldcrash? I'm using a cold room that is used by everyone and nobody shouldn't... adjust the temperature. I was thinking about having my fermzilla at 6c for 2-3 days and then bring it outside on Friday or Saturday for maybe 10-12 hours. Although, I don't know does the change in outdoor temperature affect the taste. Thoughts?

View attachment 762162

Cold crashing is not required, it usually helps drop the yeast so you can transfer clear beer into the keg/bottle. Either option would be fine.

 

[IslandLizard]

Would cold crashing at 6c (43 fahrenheit) be low enough?

What are you cold crashing for? What kind of beer?
6°C is usually cold enough. You can add some dissolved gelatin to help speed the precipitation process, if necessary.

Make sure to avoid (strong) direct light (sunlight, fluorescent light, etc.) on your fermenter/beer, it may skunk it. So keep covered with a dark towel or blanket/coat when placed outside or when in cold room with lights on.

 

[chazam]

Cold crashing is not required, it usually helps drop the yeast so you can transfer clear beer into the keg/bottle. Either option would be fine.

Clear beer sounds good to me and it's always good to learn some new stuff. I googled and heard that doing cold crash at 43f for 3-5 days, only at that temperature, would be better instead of doing everything the way I mentioned. Would it?

What are you cold crashing for? What kind of beer?
6°C is usually cold enough. You can add some dissolved gelatin to help speed the precipitation process, if necessary.

Make sure to avoid (strong) direct light (sunlight, fluorescent light, etc.) on your fermenter/beer, it may skunk it. So keep covered with a dark towel or blanket/coat when placed outside or when in cold room with lights on.

I'm cold crashing wheat beer. I originally didn't know exactly why to cold crash and assumed just because of ease of keg transfer.

This gelatin. I don't have it but I have seen it a dozen times so I assume next time I'll dump some into my fermzilla before transferring from 23c to 6c.

I covered my fermzilla with a duvet cover. I have had that on since I started fermenting. I've had some bad tasting beer the last few times thus I've started covering my fermenter (even though the problem has probably been the 73c+ temperature when mashing).

 

[cmac62]

Clear beer sounds good to me and it's always good to learn some new stuff. I googled and heard that doing cold crash at 43f for 3-5 days, only at that temperature, would be better instead of doing everything the way I mentioned. Would it?



I'm cold crashing wheat beer. I originally didn't know exactly why to cold crash and assumed just because of ease of keg transfer.

This gelatin. I don't have it but I have seen it a dozen times so I assume next time I'll dump some into my fermzilla before transferring from 23c to 6c.
I covered my fermzilla with a duvet cover.

I rarely cold crash prior to transfer, I put the 68* beer into the serving keg and crash that. The first pint or so is yeasty, but after that it pours clear until it kicks. Again either will work.

 

[chazam]

I rarely cold crash prior to transfer, I put the 68* beer into the serving keg and crash that. The first pint or so is yeasty, but after that it pours clear until it kicks. Again either will work.

My batches are minimal because I don't a mashing kettle with a volume larger than ten liters. Cold crashing would help with maximizing the amount of beer gained (assuming there will be some yeasty beer at the beginning)?

 

[jerrylotto]

But if you do cold crash, I think the ideal temperature is 31F - below the freezing temperature of water and well below the ideal serving temperature of 38F.