Weird taste from OxBlox or process?

[Bassman2003]

I do not know anybody who is mash hopping.

 

[rmr9]

Maybe I should get my pH meter out finally and give it a more accurate measure besides relying just on calculators

 

[Miraculix]

Maybe I should get my pH meter out finally and give it a more accurate measure besides relying just on calculators

And I should probably get one....

 

[Bassman2003]

Maybe I should get my pH meter out finally and give it a more accurate measure besides relying just on calculators

I would say yes. Remember to use in-spec calibration solution as it does not last more than year and calibrate before use each time.

 

[rmr9]

1) Contrary to the first thinking, no, LODO is not all or nothing. Every little bit helps. The largest steps are YOS treatment, sulfites and system process changes. Lowering or raising a bag is difficult. If you have to, do it slowly.

2) YOS is very easy and very impactful. It takes all of the oxygen away from your brewing water. That is a huge step.

3) I can't know what you are tasting, but try less IBUs. I think it is telling that this is only showing up in pale beers.

4) Double that at least.

5) There are a lot more places to hide in the darker beers. Keep at it but really take a hard look at all contact points for sanitation. Even the serving lines. Also, try some different hops or a different supplier.

Here is a video I made about the impact of low oxygen brewing -

Great video! I must have not had my head on straight when you first sent it, I have watched it a while back. I’ve been subbed to your channel for some time! I’ll have to rig up a mash cap similar to yours for my robobrew, seems like it could be manageable for the less handy of us.

I’ll definitely read the manual for my pH meter and have it calibrated when I go to use it. I have an aversion to pH meters from my days working in a lab that’s for sure.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks. I need to make some more videos but time has been scarce. Yes, pH meters require some attention.

 

[rmr9]

I wonder if my culprit could be that I typically don’t acidify my sparge water? Building my water from distilled, I don’t have any alkalinity so I always figured I didn’t have to - perhaps this is an area that needs sorting?

 

[Bassman2003]

I don't think so. You are acidifying the buffers in water, not the water itself. Water without any buffers is neutral so you do not need to treat it. Yes it has pH number but any malt contact and the malt will win. If you enter the sparge with a pH of 5.4 then adding more distilled water, what is there to drive the pH significantly higher? You would stay under pH 6.0 in that scenario.

 

[rmr9]

I don't think so. You are acidifying the buffers in water, not the water itself. Water without any buffers is neutral so you do not need to treat it. Yes it has pH number but any malt contact and the malt will win. If you enter the sparge with a pH of 5.4 then adding more distilled water, what is there to drive the pH significantly higher? You would stay under pH 6.0 in that scenario.

Put that way it makes sense, nothing there to really push the pH upward. I’m fell down that rabbit hole last night and figured I’d throw it out there as a possible culprit. Leave no stone unturned and all that

 

[Bassman2003]

That is in important part of the process.

 

[Bobby_M]

I only grazed through the long thread, but have you noticed a trend in your recipe design favoring the BARKE series of Weyermann malts? I've started to pick up a grassy/vegetal character in lagers that use high proportions of Barke malts and it spans several beers made by very high level brewers in my circles. I've tasted the same thing in Marzen, Vienna, Dunkel so I'm thinking it's probably more an issue in the Barke Munich if not all of them. At first I was blaming low alpha Hallertau and the need for laying in more hops, but it's even happening with Magnum/Hallertau combos.

This odd flavor actually comes across as very similar to Acetaldehyde to me; raw pumpkin, latex paint (I don't ever get green apple like many do). I guess, grassy/green/vegetal is close enough.

 

[rmr9]

I only grazed through the long thread, but have you noticed a trend in your recipe design favoring the BARKE series of Weyermann malts? I've started to pick up a grassy/vegetal character in lagers that use high proportions of Barke malts and it spans several beers made by very high level brewers in my circles. I've tasted the same thing in Marzen, Vienna, Dunkel so I'm thinking it's probably more an issue in the Barke Munich if not all of them. At first I was blaming low alpha Hallertau and the need for laying in more hops, but it's even happening with Magnum/Hallertau combos.

This odd flavor actually comes across as very similar to Acetaldehyde to me; raw pumpkin, latex paint (I don't ever get green apple like many do). I guess, grassy/green/vegetal is close enough.

Wow very interesting….all of the lagers were heavily based in barke either Vienna or pils. I picked up a sack of each a couple years ago and have been using them since then - stored in Vittles vaults of course. The exceptions being the dunkel which was a mix of both avangard munich malts and the porter having all English malts.

I’ve used barke munich in the past but many years ago though I didn’t pick it up in that one. Maybe it’s a crop year issue or the varietal itself? I wonder if it’s worthwhile then to give a different maltster (or even weyermann regular pils) a try.

Since I have all the ingredients in hand for a German pils, I’ll make the changes mentioned above and if I still notice this flavor I’ll switch pils malts and rebrew it. Now I’m very curious!

 

[Bassman2003]

Some people pick up flavors with the Barke and some do not. It is an easy change while keeping everything else the same.

 

[rmr9]

Some people pick up flavors with the Barke and some do not. It is an easy change while keeping everything else the same.

This makes sense too, if it’s the Barke causing the issue, I taste it though I know some of my friends may not have based on their tasting notes and talking with them.

 

[Bobby_M]

Wow very interesting….all of the lagers were heavily based in barke either Vienna or pils. I picked up a sack of each a couple years ago and have been using them since then - stored in Vittles vaults of course. The exceptions being the dunkel which was a mix of both avangard munich malts and the porter having all English malts.

I’ve used barke munich in the past but many years ago though I didn’t pick it up in that one. Maybe it’s a crop year issue or the varietal itself? I wonder if it’s worthwhile then to give a different maltster (or even weyermann regular pils) a try.

Since I have all the ingredients in hand for a German pils, I’ll make the changes mentioned above and if I still notice this flavor I’ll switch pils malts and rebrew it. Now I’m very curious!

I agree that is hasn't always been like that. When I first discovered Barke about 5 years ago and brought a few sacks in, a good friend of mine picked up two back to back Best In Shows for a Vienna Lager and then placed in the NHC finals with a Dunkel. We obviously thought it was pretty fantastic stuff. I haven't noticed the off flavor in anything with just Barke Pils.

 

[rmr9]

I agree that is hasn't always been like that. When I first discovered Barke about 5 years ago and brought a few sacks in, a good friend of mine picked up two back to back Best In Shows for a Vienna Lager and then placed in the NHC finals with a Dunkel. We obviously thought it was pretty fantastic stuff. I haven't noticed the off flavor in anything with just Barke Pils.

I’ll report back on how this German pils turns out then. As I go back over my notes I brewed an altbier a few years back that was mostly barke pils with some Munich and didn’t notice anything off back then. Could be an off year or two for the grain, who knows.

I’ll swap malts if I need to, but maybe I’ll pick up enough barke pils for a single batch when I’m back home. My LHBS only has barke pils by the sack, but in my hometown I can get it by the pound. That might help see if it’s a barke overall forever thing or just a harvest or two.

 

[rmr9]

I haven't noticed the off flavor in anything with just Barke Pils.

I only brewed 2 batches in the string of lagers that were almost entirely barke pils. The first was a Helles which was about 85% barke pils 15% barke Vienna. I believe I noticed the flavor in that. Next was a rye lager which swapped out the barke Vienna and swapped in weyermann rye malt. This one had a different flavor as well - though it’s hard to say if that’s from the pils malt or the earthy character rye malt can bring.

I’ll drop the 8% barke Vienna from my German pils recipe in favor of all barke pils with 2% Bestmalz chit. This should help me see if it is both types of barke malts I have here or just the Vienna.

 

[rmr9]

I am suspicious that the issues I had before may be mash pH related. Using my typical calculator I needed 0.7ml 88% lactic acid to hit a mash pH of 5.4. I ended up adding 3.7ml to hit a mash pH of 5.55. I wonder if I was just too high and that’s where the green/zesty/astringent(?) flavor was coming from. More time will tell!

 

[rmr9]

Hit my gravity target, and pH for this batch. All went well except for a lantern fly nymph that decided to jump into my cooled wort…not having 2 hours to heat it back to boil and cool it back down I just sanitized my hand and scooped it out. Fingers crossed that thing doesn’t ruin the whole batch.

Those things are invasive in more ways than one I guess.

 

[Bassman2003]

It will add character...

 

[rmr9]

It will add character...

As long as it isn’t contamination character…

“Lanternfly Lager: now with 100% more lanternfly”

 

[rmr9]

Took a gravity reading on the pils today at the end of diacetyl rest. Finished at 1.008 which is right around where I was hoping.

I tasted the sample and while a bit yeasty still, I did not detect the same harsh/zesty/green/astringent flavor this thread is about. I’m going to slowly drop the temps and lager a couple weeks at 38 degrees before I keg it up.

 

[rmr9]

Finally kegged and carbonated the pilsner. So far as I can tell it doesn’t have that harsh/zesty/green/astringent flavor.

Isolating what might’ve been the cause is difficult since I changed a few things. I will make changes moving forward - measure pH, OxBlox only for mash. I’ll assume the Tettnanger I had before was not to my liking - as I’m enjoying the perle in this batch a lot.

To answer the question about the lot of Barke malts I used I will safely say it’s not the pils, perhaps it’s the Vienna. I’ll have to pick up enough Barke Vienna for a batch this fall to see if a different lot has this note or not.

It’s not totally clear yet but I’m thinking a couple more weeks in keg and it’ll be nicer!