Weihenstephaner Korbinian recipe anyone?

[Hex23]

That IS the strain that is used in the real deal of this beer.

I remember reading somewhere that they actually use an ale yeast in that beer. Are you assuming that they use W34/70 because its the "Wiehenstephan" lager strain? I think that refers to the Wiehenstephan institute and I don't know if/how its related to the brewery. Maybe they do use 34/70, but it seems like it might be a challenge to get the residual sweetness that I taste in Korbinian from that yeast. Is agree that it's a great yeast, but maybe more appropriate for a pils or something drier tasting.

 

[ayupbrewing]

Could you suggest for the sake of this thread an ale yeast?

 

[wickman6]

I remember reading somewhere that they actually use an ale yeast in that beer. Are you assuming that they use W34/70 because its the "Wiehenstephan" lager strain? I think that refers to the Wiehenstephan institute and I don't know if/how its related to the brewery. Maybe they do use 34/70, but it seems like it might be a challenge to get the residual sweetness that I taste in Korbinian from that yeast. Is agree that it's a great yeast, but maybe more appropriate for a pils or something drier tasting.

Edited that post, possible you are right. You got me thinking though, I can't seem to find much info on what yeast they use.

I'm not worried about w34/70 leaving a malty beer, my Vienna lager is very malty. I know you referenced sweetness, I'll have to pick one up and give it another try and see if I catch what you describe. I think if I control my mash well enough, and boil long enough I can achieve what I'm after. Time will tell!

 

[ayupbrewing]

Whats your opinion on using Melanoiden Malt and how much in place of decoction?

 

[crazyirishman34]

Melanoiden malt was designed to take the place of decoction. I would use it as 2% of the total malt bill. I also think a long boil will give you the sweetness

 

[ayupbrewing]

OK this is what I think I will go with....any thoughts/advice.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.13 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.25 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 4.75 gal
Estimated OG: 1.076 SG
Estimated Color: 30.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 25.9 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 70.0 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
11 lbs 7.5 oz Munich Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 1 74.0 %
3 lbs 1.6 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 20.0 %
5.0 oz Caraaroma (130.0 SRM) Grain 3 2.0 %
5.0 oz Carafa II (412.0 SRM) Grain 4 2.0 %
5.0 oz Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 5 2.0 %
1.50 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00 %] - First Hop 6 25.9 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 7 -
1.0 pkg Saflager Lager (DCL/Fermentis #W-34/70) Yeast 8 -


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body
Total Grain Weight: 15 lbs 8.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperatur Step Time
Mash In Add 19.96 qt of water at 166.7 F 155.0 F 60 min
Mash Out Add 8.40 qt of water at 203.3 F 168.0 F 10 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 1.89 gal water at 168.0 F

 

[crazyirishman34]

I would do Dark Munich malt instead of the pilsner. Also would loose the cara malts and go for a 2.5 hour boil. The boil is key to getting the flavors right.

 

[BigEd]

Whats your opinion on using Melanoiden Malt and how much in place of decoction?

It won't make it taste like you did a decoction mash but a little is OK.

 

[Hex23]

Could you suggest for the sake of this thread an ale yeast?

Sorry. None really come to mind that might leave that residual sweetness that wouldn't also result in too much ester. I'd be more inclined to try something like WLP 833 or 820. I'll see if I can find where I read about the ale yeast.

 

[ayupbrewing]

Looked into doing a decoction, seems straight forward so think I'll do that in the end and omit the melanoidin. Think I'll skip ale yeast in lieu of further info and split batch and try couple different lager yeasts.

 

[ayupbrewing]

I'm going with the first recipe, looks pretty sound to me. I think its the second post. I'll probably do a double decoction, boil for 2hrs to get a bit of caramelization and ferment at 48 deg. D-rest, lager for about 6 weeks if I can wait that long.

Hey Wickman6, how long will you boil the decoctions for and do you plan on decoction rests before they reach the boil? Beer Smith doesnt suggest any times for this, only the main mash rest temps/times which i wrote Beer Smiths default settings for double decoction below to see if you think they are suitable for this beer. Thanks.

122°F (Protein, 35mins), 147°F (Sacch-1,20mins) and 156°F (Sacch-2, 20mins), 168°F (Mash out, 10mins).

 

[crazyirishman34]

I would boil them for 30min. If you only pull enought thin mash to wet the thick mash you don't need to worry about stepping the decoction. All of the enzymes are in the thin mash. One thing I would do is dough in at 95°F that will help to pull the enzymes into the thin mash.

 

[ayupbrewing]

Not sure what you meant Irish. In any case my co-brewers are not up for decoction this time so its back to single infusion with melanoidin and a long boil. If it turns out way off base then will do decoction on my own next time.

 

[crazyirishman34]

The thick mash is the grain part of the mash and the thin mash is the fluid part of the mash. When you do a decoction you want to take just enough of the thin mash to wet the thick mash. That will preserve your enzymes in the bulk of the thin mash that stays in the mashtun.

 

[ayupbrewing]

....assuming that all the enzymes have been transferred from the grain to the strike water before any decoction attempt is made, say 20mins into a protein rest, correct?

Cheers.

 

[crazyirishman34]

That is one reason that you normally dough in at 95°F and let it rest for 20min. It gives time for the grist to hydrate and the enzymes to move into the thin mash. With fully converted grain you should avoid doing a long protein rest. Normally I do a 10 min rest at 122°F

 

[ayupbrewing]

cool!

 

[ayupbrewing]

Did this beer last night.....results to come. Wickman did you try this in the end?

Ayup.

 

[wickman6]

Did this beer last night.....results to come. Wickman did you try this in the end?

Ayup.

No I haven't yet, waiting on grain delivery from a recent group buy. I'll be brewing it up when I get that.

What recipe/notes did you end up using?

 

[ayupbrewing]

This is what I actually did, however I was aiming for a 156°F Sacc rest temp. I probably didnt get the decoction all boiling as I was concerned with scortching as it was my first decoction attempt. I ended up hitting my OG bang on 1.075! It may finish lower than I wanted (1.015 instead of 1.020) because of the lower mash but should still be pretty tasty. I used Special B instead of Caraaroma because my LHBS don't carry it. Cooled to 70°F with wort chiller and put it in a swamp cooler overnight at 50°F using ice and situated it in the room above my garage which is not well insulated so stays cold. Will add the yeast tonight after work. I also ended up sparging with more water than initially planned so gave it a longer boil to evaporate down. Thats about it for now..!

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 8.04 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.25 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 4.75 gal
Estimated OG: 1.075 SG
Estimated Color: 33.1 SRM
Estimated IBU: 27.7 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 70.0 %
Boil Time: 110 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
11 lbs 9.5 oz Munich Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 1 75.0 %
2 lbs 5.1 oz Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 2 15.0 %
12.4 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 3 5.0 %
6.2 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 4 2.5 %
6.2 oz Carafa II - Caraffe (ATR) (380.0 SRM) Grain 5 2.5 %
1.00 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [6.20 %] - First Hop 6 27.7 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 7 -
3.0 pkg Saflager Lager (DCL/Fermentis #W-34/70) Yeast 8 -


Mash Schedule: Decoction Mash, Double
Total Grain Weight: 15 lbs 7.4 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperatur Step Time
Protein Rest Add 30.99 qt of water at 141.6 F 136.0 F 25 min
Saccharification Decoct 6.86 qt of mash and boil i 150.0 F 20 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 2.15 gal water at 168.0 F

 

[crazyirishman34]

Looks like a good recipe. I think that you could have left out the Special B. I also would have swapped the Pils for extra Vienna. When I do a decoction for a double bock a 30 min boil on the mash is good. Also with the long boil you might be surprized to find you don't attenuate as much as you would with a 60 min boil. You make all kinds of unfermentable sugars that way.

 

[ayupbrewing]

Cool...thanks. So you boil the decoction for 30mins?? Beer Smith gives me a difference of 5 points on the FG between the two mash temps (156 v 150)...hopefully it is wrong...which wouldn;t be the first time...

 

[crazyirishman34]

Yeah 30min boil is a good length of time for this beer. For a pilsner I do 10 min boils.

 

[ayupbrewing]

Proof that someone finely brewed this beer

 

[wickman6]

I'm brewing soon, I swear! Hahaha. Picking up grain on Sunday.

 

[ayupbrewing]

2 more weeks of lagering and im gonna bottle this bad boy! Its tasting good, not exactly like Korbinian but a good start and a very fine beer nevertheless.

 

[wickman6]

After much consideration, and trying a Celebrator and Korbinian side by side I opted to brew a Celebrator clone.

I found the Korbinian to not be as tasty as I had remembered, and I've always been a sucker for Celebrator.

 

[ayupbrewing]

cool! I'd be interested in your recipe.

 

[crazyirishman34]

I think that sometimes you can get a really great or not so great bottle when you buy imports. It just depends on how the beer was treated and how old it is.

 

[wickman6]

This is the Celebrator. The recipe I used was published in BYO clone brews magazine.

I agree with bottle treatment/age of imports. The 2 Korbinians I tried both tasted oxidized to me.