Way low mash temp. Is it still good?

[JustBrewinAround]

*AG Newb*
Doing my first all grain today and here's what happened.
I pre-heated my mash tun (10 gal Gott w/ strainer tube) with 3 gallon hot tap. I then removed said water and heated to 165 according to my digital thermo. I mixed this water with the grain (12.25#) a little of each at a time, added another gallon of 165 water and then sunk my probe in. The mash read up to 168 after the first 45 or so minutes!. I'm no engineer but most things don't heat up after heat is removed. I scrambled to the kitchen and retrieved my thermopen. The mash was sitting at about 114 at that time. I stuck my digital probe in a glass of ice water and it only went down to 99 degrees. I think that submerging the probe screwed with the readings. Back to the tun, I drew out about six cups of the liquid at a time from the valve and heated it to 170 then back into the top of the tun. I got the mash up to 148 where i wanted to be from the beginning. I'm going to press on with the batch from here but I was just woondering if the soaking at 114 ruind my mash or is it just going to lower my OG? I have just returned from the kitchen store with an analog thermo and my mash was holding at 148..

I am assuming that my strike water was never at 165 since I submerged the probe in it as well..

 

[brewkinger]

So if I am clear with what happened:

It sat at 114 for a bit before you got it up to 148?

If so then I think you are still OK. More wisdomly advice will surely come, but I do not think real conversion occurs until you get closer to proper mash temps.
My only advice would be mashing for a full hour at 148

 

[TANSTAAFB]

It's fine. If it had been too high, that would have been a problem. You basically did a step mash with a protein rest. Not necessary with modern fully converted malts, but not harmful. What are you making? This will be a highly fermentable wort.

 

[JustBrewinAround]

So if I am clear with what happened:

It sat at 114 for a bit before you got it up to 148?

If so then I think you are still OK. More wisdomly advice will surely come, but I do not think real conversion occurs until you get closer to proper mash temps.
My only advice would be mashing for a full hour at 148

Thanks.. Is there an absolute minimum temp for conversion or does it just take longer the lower the temp is? If it's anything like smoking a pork shoulder, I know you can't hurry it by jacking up the temps but there is a minimal temp required to cook the meat.

 

[JustBrewinAround]

It's fine. If it had been too high, that would have been a problem. You basically did a step mash with a protein rest. Not necessary with modern fully converted malts, but not harmful. What are you making? This will be a highly fermentable wort.

It's an off-the-cuff pale ale my LHBS threw together for me. I wasn't worries so much about the recipe but just going thru the process as this is all new experience for me and my setup.

11# 2 row
.5# 40L
.5# Carapils
.25# Roasted Honey Malt
Safale US-05 yeast
1.0 oz chinook bittering
1.0 oz cascade flavoring

 

[RLinNH]

Mashing is nothing like smoking a Pork shoulder. Minimum for starch conversion is 145(I could be wrong here 1 or 2 degrees either way. If so, someone please correct me). Essentially, conversion happens between 145-156. Between these 2 temps, the lower you go, the more fermentable your wort will be. The higher the mash temp, the less fermentable your wort will be. I am running a little off rack from your original question here though. So, to answer your question, no. If you were to let your wort sit at 114 degrees for 8 hours, no starch conversion would happen.You need to get into the essential range to convert starches into sugars.

Thanks.. Is there an absolute minimum temp for conversion or does it just take longer the lower the temp is? If it's anything like smoking a pork shoulder, I know you can't hurry it by jacking up the temps but there is a minimal temp required to cook the meat.

 

[RLinNH]

If you want a better understanding of exactly what is going on in the mash, pick up the book "How To Brew" from John Palmer. Chapter 14 is a great read about the mash. You can read the first few sub chapters of the book to get a better grasp as to how to mash, or you read the whole chapter where he describes exactly which peptides are doing what and at what temp you achieve this at. How to Brew is essential, IMHO, to any brewers library.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-5.html

Check this out^^^
Palmer does a pretty good job of explaining how temp affects alpha and beta amylase enzymes and hiw that affects wort fermentability. Basically we are shooting for a temp range that balances the two.

"The temperature most often quoted for mashing is about 153°F. This is a compromise between the two temperatures that the two enzymes favor. Alpha works best at 154-162°F, while beta is denatured (the molecule falls apart) at that temperature, working best between 131-150°F"

You will have fairly high attenuation and a dryer beer with the lower mash temps. This should be balanced somewhat by your crystal malts and will accentuate the hops. Should be a damn good pale though you may notice thinner mouthfeel and less body.

 

[JustBrewinAround]

Thanks for the info fellas. I'm fly sparging now and the wort tastes wonderful, just like the sample i had at the AG class at my LHBS.
I am a very experienced with meat curing and smoking so I had to make that analogy. I'll be sure to pick up a copy of that book as i like to have quick references on hand without going back to the www. I'll keep this thread updated as to the final product of this brew..

 

[JustBrewinAround]

Well I had an OG of 1.050 after the mahout and fly sparge of six gallons. I put that to a boil and continued to sarge some more. After the 5 gallons of sparge water drained out of the liquid tank, I stopped sparing. When my boil reduced a little I began to add some of the remaining wort that I was boiling on the other burner. I hopped a scheduled then chilled the wort in a bout 30 minutes. At 64 degrees the OG was 1.048. I guess I added too much of the late sparge? Either way into the carboy and a quick pitch of hydrated yeast and it went into the tub of cool water under the stairs. This morning I went to change out my ice bottles and the temp was 77 and the airlock was poppin away.. Looks and semells great. Can't wait for a FG and some kegging..

 

[brewkinger]

What was your expected OG?

The only reason that I ask is because post boil gravity should go UP.
Boiling water off should make for a more sugary wort.
So if u started off at 1.050 and ended up at 1.048 then something is a little hinkey!

 

[JustBrewinAround]

What was your expected OG?

The only reason that I ask is because post boil gravity should go UP.
Boiling water off should make for a more sugary wort.
So if u started off at 1.050 and ended up at 1.048 then something is a little hinkey!

I think it was because I added the last of the wort that was sparged without properly boiling it down. I had the first 6 gal boiling while I was still sparing the rest. I momentarily got the remainder up to a boil before I added it to the brew pot so i wouldn't cool the brew pot. Therefore I think I dilluted my wort a little. No big deal, I think it will still twist a tongue after a mug or two..

All in all I mashed and sparged with close to 9 gallons of water and i only boiled about 7.5 to a 6 gallon final. I tossed about a gallon of unboiled wort in the yard. By the time I recovered from my first fiasco, my brew day grew really short and I was sweating the chill-down in this desert heat in AZ.

 

[brewkinger]

Yeah, it sounds like you oversparged a little bit.
And like you said, you threw a gallon away, so there goes some sugars as well.
Still drinkable as you said though.

 

[judsonp]

Mashing is nothing like smoking a Pork shoulder. Minimum for starch conversion is 145(I could be wrong here 1 or 2 degrees either way. If so, someone please correct me). Essentially, conversion happens between 145-156. Between these 2 temps, the lower you go, the more fermentable your wort will be. The higher the mash temp, the less fermentable your wort will be. I am running a little off rack from your original question here though. So, to answer your question, no. If you were to let your wort sit at 114 degrees for 8 hours, no starch conversion would happen.You need to get into the essential range to convert starches into sugars.

While I'll agree that mashing isn't much like cooking pork at all, it's not true that conversion only happens at such high temperatures. Amylase operates just fine lower temperatures. In fact, it normally operates at much lower temperatuers: animals and plants make extensive use of the amylases and generally aren't anywhere close to 140 F.

It's much, much slower, though; slow enough that at brewing time scales, you can just count it as "none".

 

[Denny]

Essentially, conversion happens between 145-156.

Actually more like 130-165. Here's a chart from How to Brew...

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Actually more like 130-165. Here's a chart from How to Brew...

Great reference Denny, thanks!

 

[JustBrewinAround]

Actually more like 130-165. Here's a chart from How to Brew...

Great little graph. Gives me something to study. I need to fit this book into my lean brewing budget..

 

[Denny]

Great little graph. Gives me something to study. I need to fit this book into my lean brewing budget..

The first edition, which is pretty good, is free online at www.howtobrew.com. When you can afford it, I highly recommend you buy the 3rd edition, which has a lot more info and is easier to read.

 

[kombat]

This morning I went to change out my ice bottles and the temp was 77 and the airlock was poppin away.

I think a fermentation temperature of 77° F is much more likely to cause you problems than your mash temperature difficulties.

Get that wort temperature down to the mid-60's ASAP!

 

[JustBrewinAround]

I think a fermentation temperature of 77° F is much more likely to cause you problems than your mash temperature difficulties.

Get that wort temperature down to the mid-60's ASAP!

Mid 60s just isn't going to happen without a lot of attention and labor. My ice bottles are keeping it around 70 right now and I''l change them out this afternoon and before I go to sleep, then again in the morning and so-on. My AC is set for 78 right now, and it runs enough as is, so my only economical solution is to change out frozen water bottles. I have ten in the freezer and five in the tub.. I store my carboy in a closet under the stairs so there isn't much airflow to use the evap-with-a-towel technique.

 

[JustBrewinAround]

The first edition, which is pretty good, is free online at www.howtobrew.com. When you can afford it, I highly recommend you buy the 3rd edition, which has a lot more info and is easier to read.

Ill get the first and look for the third. Thanks for the heads-up!

 

[brewkinger]

I think a fermentation temperature of 77° F is much more likely to cause you problems than your mash temperature difficulties.

Get that wort temperature down to the mid-60's ASAP!

Kind of too late at this point.
That post of the temperature was from 2 or 3 days ago, so assuming normal fermentation, the bulk of initial ferment is pretty much over.

For future brews, definitely get that temperature down into the low to mid 60's for the first week.
I routinely do a week at 64, then gradually increase the temps over a couple days towards the upper end of the acceptable range for the yeast (for my house strain, this is usually up around 68 degrees)

Brew on!

Great reference Denny on the graph. That post came up as I was looking at the graph in the book.

 

[JustBrewinAround]

It's still popping and the wort is still churning pretty well. The krausen is about 1 1/2 inches think but never rose up to the airlock like I've had multiple batches do. Looks like this will be a fairly easy carboy to clean.

 

[JustBrewinAround]

After a week in the primary, my gravity is sittin' right at 1.012. The beer tastes ok but definately could use some resting. I think I'll rack it to a secondary for a week, check gravity then possibly keg it..

 

[JustBrewinAround]

I racked it to a secondary today to free up my primary for this weekend. The Fg seems to be holding at 1.010. I can't wait to keg it this weekend and get it on tap. Thanks again for all the info. it has definitely been a good learning experience.
BTW, Here's my set up. Comments and advise are welcome..


I have no idea how to rotate a photo..

 

[JustBrewinAround]

Well it came out ok. A liitle short on flavor though. I'm gonna punch the numbers into beersmith and see what I could have done different. It is definately drinkable and packs a little punch on the ABV side. Thanks again for all the info.