Waterprofile Golden Ale

[Kold Brygg]

I'm planning av Golden Ale inspired by the Graham Wheeler HopBack Summer Lightning clone. First try on this style

The recipe
Maris Otter
Challenger+EKG (IBU 30)
Nottingham

OG 1.050
FG 1.010
pH 5.30

I first supposed I should just use the Palmer profile for Kölsch.
But I notice The Bru'n Water profile for dry yellow is slightly different. I suppose both would work.

How do you profile your Golden Ales and why?

Palmer Kölsch profile
ca75 mg15 na50 cl50 so25 hco40
BnW Yellow dry profile
ca50 mg7 na5 cl60 so75 hco0

 

[cire]

How about using Graham Wheeler's "Liquor Treatment Calculator"?

It has a range of profiles available, possibly the Dry Pale Ale might be suitable.

 

[Kold Brygg]

How about using Graham Wheeler's "Liquor Treatment Calculator"?

It has a range of profiles available, possibly the Dry Pale Ale might be suitable.

Thanks, that seem to Burtonize the water quite a bit. Might be a bit to much?

Wheeler Dry Pale Ale
ca190 mg15 na30 cl165 so330 hco40

@mabrungard are you able to offer some advice.

 

[cire]

Summer Lightning is brewed by Hopback Brewery in Downton, near Salisbury in postcode SP5 3HU.

Water is supplied by Bournemouth Water, but the information they supply of interest to brewers is limited to hardness and sodium. That water is hard at 114.82 mg/L as calcium, that is 287 mg/L as CaCO3.

Now I don't have a water report for that particular supply, but have one for close to that brewery with similar water. Analysis and advice is by Murphy & Son, who will probably advise Hopback Brewery.

 

[John Coo's Brews]

Thanks, that seem to Burtonize the water quite a bit. Might be a bit to much?

Wheeler Dry Pale Ale
ca190 mg15 na30 cl165 so330 hco40

@mabrungard are you able to offer some advice.

Given you are trying to clone a Golden Ale from UK, the higher mineral levels seem appropriate. The recommendation from @cire seems to make sense. You could also compare it to a few of the other profiles in Bru'n Water calculator. The Pale Ale profile (line 47) is similar to the Wheeler Dry Pale Ale. I think the more generic Dry Yellow profile may not quite fit the actual water used to produce the Hopback Golden Ale - though I'm sure it would likely produce a fine drop itself.

 

[Kold Brygg]

Summer Lightning is brewed by Hopback Brewery in Downton, near Salisbury in postcode SP5 3HU.

Water is supplied by Bournemouth Water, but the information they supply of interest to brewers is limited to hardness and sodium. That water is hard at 114.82 mg/L as calcium, that is 287 mg/L as CaCO3.

Now I don't have a water report for that particular supply, but have one for close to that brewery with similar water. Analysis and advice is by Murphy & Son, who will probably advise Hopback Brewery.


View attachment 723668

Thanks for offering detailed insight. This is very interesting. And you might very well be correct. I still have a few weeks to investigate and learn.

Given you are trying to clone a Golden Ale from UK, the higher mineral levels seem appropriate. The recommendation from @cire seems to make sense. You could also compare it to a few of the other profiles in Bru'n Water calculator. The Pale Ale profile (line 47) is similar to the Wheeler Dry Pale Ale. I think the more generic Dry Yellow profile may not quite fit the actual water used to produce the Hopback Golden Ale - though I'm sure it would likely produce a fine drop itself.

I've had the impression that Pale Ales normally are have a bit of crystal/ amber etc and more hops than a Golden Ale. Surely there are differences, but generally speaking.

My water is soft with few minerals, so I can nearly do whatever I'd like when it comes to profiling the water.

As a newbie I don't always have a reference to how waterprofiling influence with my recipe.

My first IPA ended up unbalanced with too little bitterness, and wrong waterprofile might be part of the reason for that.

If I Burtonize the water as you both suggest, how will that influence how I experience the bitterness?

Wheeler Dry Pale Ale
ca190 mg15 na30 cl165 so330 hco40
Palmer Kölsch profile
ca75 mg15 na50 cl50 so25 hco40
BnW Yellow dry profile
ca50 mg7 na5 cl60 so75 hco0

 

[John Coo's Brews]

My first IPA ended up unbalanced with too little bitterness, and wrong waterprofile might be part of the reason for that.

If I Burtonize the water as you both suggest, how will that influence how I experience the bitterness?

Wheeler Dry Pale Ale
ca190 mg15 na30 cl165 so330 hco40
Palmer Kölsch profile
ca75 mg15 na50 cl50 so25 hco40
BnW Yellow dry profile
ca50 mg7 na5 cl60 so75 hco0

To accentuate the bitterness, look for the SO4:Cl ratio to be higher. A "true" Burton on Trent profile has a very high ratio (look at line 1 in the Bru'n Water table of profiles - it's 17.4:1!), and in the Bru'n Water profile for the Pale Ale that I mentioned earlier, it show a 5.5:1 ratio, with a comment: "for hoppy beers". And the Wheeler Dry Pale Ale is 2:1, while the Burton Pale Ale profile is nearly 8:1. I think either of these (Bru'n Water Pale ale or Wheeler Dry Pale ale) could be fine to accentuate the hoppiness, but as you will see above, the Kölsch profile is 1:2, just the opposite needed to accentuate the hops.

The other thing I'm learning about maintaining the hops characteristic is oxidation. You can have a good water profile, but if you get too much "cold side" oxidation (anything that occurs after fermentation - such as transfers and bottling), it can/will dull the influence of the hops over time.

 

[cire]

If I Burtonize the water as you both suggest, how will that influence how I experience the bitterness?

Wheeler Dry Pale Ale
ca190 mg15 na30 cl165 so330 hco40
Palmer Kölsch profile
ca75 mg15 na50 cl50 so25 hco40
BnW Yellow dry profile
ca50 mg7 na5 cl60 so75 hco0

If a hoppy beer is your objective, add more hops.

Mineral profile influences flavors, but also greatly effects the beer as a whole rather than just malt versus hop. A British ale should be served no lower than 50F and preferably a little warmer. British ale should satisfy, not simply refresh.

Malt provides masses of potassium, phosphates, and magnesium, modest amounts of sulfate and chloride and minor quantities of sodium and calcium.

At least half the calcium in brewing liquor will deposit, principally in the mash with phosphates oxalates, otherwise they finish in the beer and mask more desirable, components. Calcium also acts in the mash as a catalyst to produce free amino nitrogen (FAN) essential for strong fermentation.

In the boil, calcium helps bond hot break and with any remaining calcium based alkalinity will deposit there.

Malt supplies about 100 ppm chloride to wort and while sulfate content is more variable, at times it can reach levels approaching that of chloride. For this reason alone, sulfate:chloride ratio or levels cannot be a precise determinate from one batch of malt to the next, but sulphate makes a beer dry while chloride improves its body.

I avoid putting hops in the fermentor, any dry hopping done in the cask at racking. I pitch plenty of a top fermenting yeast and rouse for next 2 days. Fermentation will be close to finish after the third day, when wort is slowly cooled to cellar temperature. On the seventh day, still active yeast will be present in vastly smaller quantity and the beer will be racked to cask to carbonate and drop clear.

Regardless of whatever is done, hop flavours decline while often malt flavours mature to higher level. For a hoppier beer, add more hops and drink while young. Don't let the beer sit for weeks in the FV, nor cold crash an ale like one would a lager, else yeast will be harmed and unable to consume any unwanted oxygen.

 

[Kold Brygg]

To accentuate the bitterness, look for the SO4:Cl ratio to be higher. A "true" Burton on Trent profile has a very high ratio (look at line 1 in the Bru'n Water table of profiles - it's 17.4:1!), and in the Bru'n Water profile for the Pale Ale that I mentioned earlier, it show a 5.5:1 ratio, with a comment: "for hoppy beers". And the Wheeler Dry Pale Ale is 2:1, while the Burton Pale Ale profile is nearly 8:1. I think either of these (Bru'n Water Pale ale or Wheeler Dry Pale ale) could be fine to accentuate the hoppiness, but as you will see above, the Kölsch profile is 1:2, just the opposite needed to accentuate the hops.

The other thing I'm learning about maintaining the hops characteristic is oxidation. You can have a good water profile, but if you get too much "cold side" oxidation (anything that occurs after fermentation - such as transfers and bottling), it can/will dull the influence of the hops over time.

If a hoppy beer is your objective, add more hops.

Mineral profile influences flavors, but also greatly effects the beer as a whole rather than just malt versus hop. A British ale should be served no lower than 50F and preferably a little warmer. British ale should satisfy, not simply refresh.

Malt provides masses of potassium, phosphates, and magnesium, modest amounts of sulfate and chloride and minor quantities of sodium and calcium.

At least half the calcium in brewing liquor will deposit, principally in the mash with phosphates oxalates, otherwise they finish in the beer and mask more desirable, components. Calcium also acts in the mash as a catalyst to produce free amino nitrogen (FAN) essential for strong fermentation.

In the boil, calcium helps bond hot break and with any remaining calcium based alkalinity will deposit there.

Malt supplies about 100 ppm chloride to wort and while sulfate content is more variable, at times it can reach levels approaching that of chloride. For this reason alone, sulfate:chloride ratio or levels cannot be a precise determinate from one batch of malt to the next, but sulphate makes a beer dry while chloride improves its body.

I avoid putting hops in the fermentor, any dry hopping done in the cask at racking. I pitch plenty of a top fermenting yeast and rouse for next 2 days. Fermentation will be close to finish after the third day, when wort is slowly cooled to cellar temperature. On the seventh day, still active yeast will be present in vastly smaller quantity and the beer will be racked to cask to carbonate and drop clear.

Regardless of whatever is done, hop flavours decline while often malt flavours mature to higher level. For a hoppier beer, add more hops and drink while young. Don't let the beer sit for weeks in the FV, nor cold crash an ale like one would a lager, else yeast will be harmed and unable to consume any unwanted oxygen.

Wow! Thank you both for using time to educate and guide me

The hops are leftovers from a Burton Ale, which I'm making for maturing towards the darker times. I might adjust the water profile here as well, but I actually found inspiration for this profile after reading a comment by @mabrungard . Anyway that's another story

I don't intend to make a hoppy beer, I wants to make a simple lawnmower beer for the summer. I searched for at Golden Ale, which isn't a classic British style, but a style made by microbreweries in the eighties to compete against the lagers. Coincidently I found Wheelers clone of Summer Lighting which uses the same hops as my take on Burton Ale. I haven't tasted Summer Lightning, and even if I had, I wouldn't have a intention to make a exact clone (I probably wouldn't have made it if I even tried). I just use the recipe as inspiration to make a beer that suits me and my taste. I've reduced the IBU from 40 to 30 from Wheelers recipe, because I'm a bit sensitive towards bitterness. And after reading some comments on BeerAdvocate on the original, it looks like it's having a sulphate based water profile, so you are totally spot

I still haven't decided how I'd profile my water , but for sure I will take your advice and make some adjustments and make the beer sulphate based. And whatever I decides to do I have a better understanding why the outcome became what it became. Which gives me a better understanding how the minerals influence the final result.

Thanks again.

 

[Fly_Guy]

Just remember to pay attention to mash pH too. Sometimes those lighter beers need some acid added to get to a low enough pH.

I just brewed up a beer with 2 row, pale ale, c-40 and some toasted rye. Used a higher mineral profile because the color was going to be around 9srm. Forgot to pay attention to pH and mashed at 5.7pH (room temp). I still hit my numbers but I think it might end up very thin in body, which won't play nicely with my planned fruit additions.

For reference I used the brewers friend balanced profile II

 

[thehaze]

It depends on your taste. I used to treat my water very lightly, with modest levels of Ca, Cl and SO4 and I was rarely happy with the results. I now use more of everything, without thinking about ratios, etc.

Note that SO4 does not accentuate hoppiness or bitterness on its own - it's a common effort. SO4 does help with the finish of the beer, making it drier. Bitterness in beer ( some perceived bitterness can also be added by using larger amounts of hop when dry hopping ) is a result of hop isomerisation, meaning hops that get boiled for a periode of time. Hoppiness is a direct result of the amount of hops used and how well the brewer managed to retain as much aroma and flavour, into the final product.

Ratios are more or less not a good indicator of anything. Sure, you want ( can ) more sulfate than chloride in a Bitter, Golden Ale, WC IPA, etc. A 5:1 ratio with an overall low mineral content is not the same as a 5:1 ratio with elevated mineral additions. 5:1 can be 50 ppm SO4 to 10 ppm Cl, but also 300 ppm SO4 to 60 ppm Cl. And in terms of flavour, flocculation, they will not be the same, although SO4:CL ratio is the same. The one with more SO4 will be distincly different, while the one with low mineral content will most likely turn out bland. Mash pH is also important - shoot for anything between 5.3 and 5.6 in the mash and a post boil pH closer to 5.0. Acids are used to lower pH, while sodium bicarbonate helps raise it ( for dark beers ). Pale malts will always require some sort of acid addition due to their light kilning ( high pH when mashed 5.8-6.2 - depends heavily on malts and maltsers ), while recipes that include crystal / roasted malts will require less or not at all.

cire above has covered a lot of great and useful points. Ca is needed as some of it is lost during mash and it also aids flocculation and the time/speed needed for the beer to achieve desired clarity ( when and if desired ).

If unable to decide what and how to proceed, may I suggest a combo or a middleground? Perhaps you're uneasy about going many hundreds of ppm SO4 for your beer - the stark difference between Bru'nWater, Palmer and the english ways of treating water is also confusing. I would start with 150 ppm SO4, 100 ppm Cl, Mg and Na can sit at around 5-10 ppm each ( Na can be raised more and it wont taste salty until you reach levels of 150 ppm, and maybe not even there ) and whatever Ca will result from there, most likely around 90-120 ppm. Cheers.