Water ?

[Homercidal]

I understand what you're saying. But " spring water" is not the same as " ground" or "well" water. Our aquifers here in Ohio have been pretty good since I started using them a few years ago. May have to see if I can get a water report from White House?

Unfortunately placing "Spring" on the label only indicates that the water came out of the ground. The gov. does not require any indication of where, how deep, mineral content, etc.

Ice Mountain (Nestle) put a water bottling plant in south of where I live. They pump water out of the ground like everyone else does. After that they treat it to make sure it's sanitary. The alkalinity around here is really high.

An alternate location to that one was about 12 miles west of here. Nothing but woods and farmland. Water doesn't come from a spring, it's just well water, like everyone else uses around here. Local citizens fought to keep the bottling plant out because they feared they would lower the wells in the are, which are used for household drinking water and irrigating farmland.

Hell, our city water is "spring" water right up until they add Chloramine! They draw from 3 wells in town. One of them is located in the parking lot where I work!

Bottled spring water really tells you nothing about the minerals inside. Bottled water companies *should* have a link on their website showing some of the minerals. You might have to look them up.

 

[unionrdr]

Some of them do if you understand the difference. Spring water comes from pockets, or aquifers in the bedrock. Well or groundwater comes from the water table in the ground. And you can smell the minerals in highly mineralized ground water. Taste can be nasty to slightly evident, but that's a matter of the individual. So there are geologic differences, & to say there aren't is ignorant or?...& It would be nice if they posted the water report once more.

 

[Homercidal]

Some of them do if you understand the difference. Spring water comes from pockets, or aquifers in the bedrock. Well or groundwater comes from the water table in the ground. And you can smell the minerals in highly mineralized ground water. Taste can be nasty to slightly evident, but that's a matter of the individual. So there are geologic differences, & to say there aren't is ignorant or?...

I'm saying that in EITHER CASE a bottling company can put "Spring Water" on their label. So buying spring water doesn't mean squat to the purchaser. you could buy a bottle labeled spring water and all it means is that it came pumped up from the ground.

Also, you aren't seriously saying that anyone could simply smell water and know how alkaline is, or how much mineral content is in it, are you?

 

[unionrdr]

After experiencing spring water & ground, or well water in many places, if the mineral content is high enough, some of the minerals can be smelled & tasted. Yuk when too high. And kool-aid doesn't help in some instances...lol. but yeah, the moniker " spring water", in many instances can just be a matter of marketing. Spring water sounds more positive than filtered well water. so I'll give you that. As I stated previously, I get that part. But the waters I mentioned have worked out a tad better than the Lake Erie tap water in the beers I've made from the start. So I'm looking back over five years of using them to brew with when I get into these conversations. Not to be insulting, but I've experienced the differences without water reports. They would be nice to see. I am, understandably, curious.

 

[Gavin C]

Spring water should not be confused with well, or " ground water", which can be heavily mineralized.

Heavily mineralized delicious spring water unsuitable for brewing

The term is simply meaningless for a brewer.

Use whatever water you want of course, but to advise folks that x brand is good, y brand is better is meaningless as it is solely your preference.

Simpler and less misleading would be to say, " I use X brand for my beers because I like the results over 5 years of brewing"

Your definition of spring water (low mineral content and from a certain type of source) does not match with reality.

• Many spring waters are highly mineralized.
• Spring waters come from an array of geographic/geological sources.

 

[unionrdr]

True, but ours isn't mineralized enough to taste it. Perhaps I'll just rephrase to stop all the nitpicking? And I do specify the brand of waters, so as not to be too generalized. That's as close as I can come to describing what I'm using. If any members live near the two places I get them, they can try them for themselves & see what I've been talking about. I can't tell you what they don't list. so I use my experiences...or just say, " Hey, this is what I use & it works great". So I'm not generalizing, & I'm not wrong. Spring water as a term is quite often misused. The particular qualities of a spring water depend on the rock they came from, of course. But it is not the same as ground water, which comes out of the dirt, to be blunt.

 

[Gavin C]

But it is not the same as ground water, which comes out of the dirt, to be blunt.

Your definitions are vastly different than what is generally accepted. This is not nit-picking in a discussion on water and how it relates to brewing.

You write brewing books, have a youtube channel and have many years of brewing experience. It's kind of important to get the facts straight if your audience are prospective brewers or folks wanting to learn more.

Spring water is just a subset of ground water.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundwater

 

[ajdelange]

[*]Smell test threshold? (that's new to me)

Test subjects are presented successively less diluted samples of the water being tested and the dilution at which they first detect and odor is reported as the Threshold Odor Number (TON). IOW if no odor is detected when 19 mL of sample is diluted to 200 ml but is when 20 mL of sample is diluted to 200 mL the TON is 10.

 

[Gavin C]

Test subjects are presented successively less diluted samples of the water being tested and the dilution at which they first detect and odor is reported as the Threshold Odor Number (TON). IOW if no odor is detected when 19 mL of sample is diluted to 200 ml but is when 20 mL of sample is diluted to 200 mL the TON is 10.

Specifically WRT to determining mineral content in water. Is my sulphate level OK for my APA I'm brewing? Hold on a sec, let me have a wiff of your water and I'll tell you.

I am aware of a smell threshold test in other respects

 

[unionrdr]

No need for sarcasm. I'm not talking about labs, tests, whatever. I've had well water in WV & North Olmsted where you could smell the stuff in the water, as well as taste it. I'm not saying using smell or taste to determine whether to use it or not, so don't mince my words into something they're not.
Ground water picks up these minerals as it moves through the substrate. It can take a very long time to do so, picking up minerals in the soil/broken rock, etc it travels through. So location does indeed matter. So in my experience, as you're so fond of discussing, Well water, which comes through the ground, ie dirt, can taste a heck of a lot different than what comes out of wells drilled in the bedrock & piped to the surface, BEFORE it moves through what's under our feet & gets more mineralized. some times quite a bit. When I mention using spring water, I also mention where I get it here in OHIO. I know it may be different where they are, thus mentioning where it came from. I also think we should stop being quite so PC around here, merely for the sake of argument.

 

[MaxStout]

Not all store-bought RO water is equal. My local WallyWorld has a Primo dispenser, with water selling for 37c/gal. I looked up their data sheet online (PDF) and it shows 33ppm TDS, with 12ppm Ca, 7.6ppm SO4. Their website states that they add a "secret formula of calcium chloride, magnesium sulfate and sodium bicarbonate" for flavor. The PDF data sheet does not have listings for the magnesium or sodium levels, probably so that we cannot reverse-engineer their "secret formula" of minerals.

 

[Gavin C]

Not all store-bought RO water is equal. My local WallyWorld has a Primo dispenser, with water selling for 37c/gal. I looked up their data sheet online (PDF) and it shows 33ppm TDS, with 12ppm Ca, 7.6ppm SO4. Their website states that they add a "secret formula of calcium chloride, magnesium sulfate and sodium bicarbonate" for flavor. The PDF data sheet does not have listings for the magnesium or sodium levels, probably so that we cannot reverse-engineer their "secret formula" of minerals.

That's why it's useful to have a TDS meter (~$15) to check on the quality of what you're getting. My local Walmart's RO water clocked in at 7ppm. This is lower than the set levels in Bru'n Water for RO which are more inline with the numbers you have mentioned.

My guess is that the manufacturers list their maximum levels so that customers can decide if it's good enough. If it's lower at the dispenser all the better. I'm sure the TDS of the RO water can vary from store to store and machine to machine depending on multiple factors.

 

[MaxStout]

That's why it's useful to have a TDS meter (~$15) to check on the quality of what you're getting. My local Walmart's RO water clocked in at 7ppm. This is lower than the set levels in Bru'n Water for RO which are more inline with the numbers you have mentioned.

My guess is that the manufacturers list their maximum levels so that customers can decide if it's good enough. If it's lower at the dispenser all the better. I'm sure the TDS of the RO water can vary from store to store and machine to machine depending on multiple factors.

I just went to Walmart a few minutes ago to pick up some photo prints. Just for fun I bought a gallon of the Primo water. I tested it with my TDS meter, and it showed 10ppm. A lot less than the company's stated 33ppm. Maybe they are no longer adding their "secret formula" of salts to the water.

It's kind of moot for me anyway, as I now have an RO system (Buckeye Hydro), where I get 4ppm. Based on my tap water's 194ppm, that's close to 98% rejection. 4ppm vs. 10ppm is kind of negligible for my purposes, but I do like making my own RO at home. No more lugging 5 gal jugs to and from the store. Plus I can use it for coffee makers, humidifier, Starsan, etc.

 

[Homercidal]

I understand what you're saying. But " spring water" is not the same as " ground" or "well" water. Our aquifers here in Ohio have been pretty good since I started using them a few years ago. May have to see if I can get a water report from White House?

I don't consider it nit-picking when you are telling a potentially inexperienced brewer that spring water is specifically something, when it's potentially not even close to suitable for. Above you make a very broad claim that seems to include an entire state. I can tell you that the local water here, and the water that gets put in Ice Mountain (there is NO mountain remotely close to us...) is vastly different from water also drawn from the ground mere miles away. Water that comes gushing from the ground right next to the house I grew up in about 45 minutes away is high in iron and sulfer. And that is an Artisian well!

Surface water, or water close to the surface is especially susceptible to contamination.

You also make a claim that someone should be able to simply smell a water and know if it's suitable for brewing, which is absurd. I'll give you that in SOME CASES you can smell water and know it's got stuff in there that you don't want in your beer, but there are plenty of waters that are unsuitable for most brewing, that smell the same as perfectly suitable water.

I'm just trying to prevent someone from reading your comments and believing that all water labeled spring water is low in mineral content and suitable for all kinds of brewing, or simply being able to sniff some water and know that it's good for beer.

 

[unionrdr]

I never said anybody should be able to smell it. I said when they're high I could smell it, like sulphur & the like. Some places in WV, for example, or my dad's buddy's farm over in N olmsted I could. Nasty stuff. Of course I or anyone else can't smell or taste it in all water...just the particularly strong stuff. I could anyway. Besides, folks should read labels. Yet another subject I can no longer talk about unless I become a walking textbook by some famous person. I always mentioned where I got & they can see under my avatar where. I guess 60 years of experience isn't the same as a damn book, treatise or paper. I'm done. Guess I'll just read from now on...

 

[actech]

This water stuff is kinda confusing but I'm gonna email the local water commission to see if they got some #'s I can start with. I haven't tried to make any beer from my water here,coffee tastes like crap so I can't see beer being good. But may just need a carbon taste/odor filter and campden tabs for chlorimine. If I get any #'s from them I'll post em.

 

[actech]

[

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

This thread gives you a great, simple guide for using RO water, sour malt, gypsum, calcium chloride. It's a great place to start if you are not chemically inclined (like me). Every thing you need is on the first page of the thread.



edit: added the quote[/QUOTE]

Great info one question .. Which category would pale ale fit in? My first brew gonna be Yoopers pale ale

 

[OldTimer]

I read me a book called tappy tappy tippee that had a section on water sniffin' for minerals. I think they might be onto something here.

 

[slym2none]

This water stuff is kinda confusing but I'm gonna email the local water commission to see if they got some #'s I can start with. I haven't tried to make any beer from my water here,coffee tastes like crap so I can't see beer being good. But may just need a carbon taste/odor filter and campden tabs for chlorimine. If I get any #'s from them I'll post em.

See if their water report is online. IDK where you are, but it might be found that way, that's how I found mine!

Also, you might be surprised what just a Campden tab can do. My tap water goes from smelling somewhat like a swimming pool to, well, odorless.

 

[actech]

See if their water report is online. IDK where you are, but it might be found that way, that's how I found mine!

Also, you might be surprised what just a Campden tab can do. My tap water goes from smelling somewhat like a swimming pool to, well, odorless.

They just got back to me. Only thing online is info on the stuff thats not to be in the water. They said this is recent results :
Alk:98-112 PH:7.8-8.4 Total Hardness 120-144 85-95 calcium .01-.04 manganese Chlorine:.5-1.5 Iron:.00-.01
Isn't there some wide swings there or is that normal? Rite now it smells ok but there are times some kind of algea blooms in lake and water smells like dirt. If a carbon filter makes it taste/smell ok how bad are those #'s to work with? Mainly pales but I do make porters too.
Kurt

 

[unionrdr]

I read me a book called tappy tappy tippee that had a section on water sniffin' for minerals. I think they might be onto something here.

Tippy tippy tappy. Everybody funny...now you funny too!...

 

[Homercidal]

They just got back to me. Only thing online is info on the stuff thats not to be in the water. They said this is recent results :
Alk:98-112 PH:7.8-8.4 Total Hardness 120-144 85-95 calcium .01-.04 manganese Chlorine:.5-1.5 Iron:.00-.01
Isn't there some wide swings there or is that normal? Rite now it smells ok but there are times some kind of algea blooms in lake and water smells like dirt. If a carbon filter makes it taste/smell ok how bad are those #'s to work with? Mainly pales but I do make porters too.
Kurt

Honestly, if it's that bad, I would find some RO water and work with that. Reason being that you can get numerous water reports throughout the year, but if you water varies that much you never really know how much of anything is going to be in it at any given time.

And RO is way easy to calculate with.