Water Volume question

[daytondave]

I have a receipt that calls for mashing at 148 degrees using 15 quarts of water for 90 minutes and then raising the water temperature to 168 for mashout for 10 minutes.

I am using an insulated cooler as a mashtun. I have found calculators that tell me how much water to add to ensure I hit the target temp of the mashout (add 7.7 quarts of boiling water to raise the temp from 148 to 168) but they don’t adjust the initial water volume to account for the additional water for the mashout.

How do I know how to adjust the initial water volume so I don’t end up with too much/diluted wort? Do I just take the amount of water listed in the recipe (15 quarts for example) and deduct the amount I will need to add for mash out. (15 - 7.7 = 7.3 quarts). This doesn’t sound right. I’m afraid if I do this the mash will be too thick and get stuck.

Should I just skip the mashout? I’m not sure how important that step is.

Thanks in advance for the help.

 

[doug293cz]

I have a receipt that calls for mashing at 148 degrees using 15 quarts of water for 90 minutes and then raising the water temperature to 168 for mashout for 10 minutes.

I am using an insulated cooler as a mashtun. I have found calculators that tell me how much water to add to ensure I hit the target temp of the mashout (add 7.7 quarts of boiling water to raise the temp from 148 to 168) but they don’t adjust the initial water volume to account for the additional water for the mashout.

How do I know how to adjust the initial water volume so I don’t end up with too much/diluted wort? Do I just take the amount of water listed in the recipe (15 quarts for example) and deduct the amount I will need to add for mash out. (15 - 7.7 = 7.3 quarts). This doesn’t sound right. I’m afraid if I do this the mash will be too thick and get stuck.

Should I just skip the mashout? I’m not sure how important that step is.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Are you planning to batch sparge or fly sparge? No need for a mash out when batch sparging. Also, no need to mash with the volume of water that the recipe suggests. For batch sparging you want to target roughly equal run off volumes for the mash and the sparge. Total brewing water should equal your desired pre-boil volume plus MLT retention. MLT retention is grain absorption plus MLT undrainable volume. You can estimate grain absorption (in gal) by multiplying your total grain weight by 0.125. So, your sparge volume will be half the pre-boil volume, and your strike volume will be your sparge volume plus 0.125 times your grain weight plus your MLT undrainable volume.

Brew on

 

[JawZziff]

^^Yup, doug got it. I do mine slightly different but damn near samesies. John Palmer recommends doughing in with 1.5 to 2 quarts water per 1 pound of grain in the recipe. Mash in with this and after the mash you can fly/batch sparge with the remainder of the water required for the recipe.... taking into account grain absorption or dead space in the mash tun. If you mash with the entire 15 quarts all at once you will end up with a thinner beer despite mash temps. More room for the enzymes to do what they do.

 

[ericrichards420]

Raising the temperature of your mash during the mash is refereed to as step mashing. In order for you to do this in a plastic cooler you will need a RIMS system. You will either be recirculating through your HLT via a stainless or copper coil or through a Heat apparatus involving a hot water heater element back to the mash tun.

What your calling mash out is refereed to as batch sparging.
I generally mash with Half my total water, and sparge at 170 with the other half for a 5 gallon brew.

 

[doug293cz]

...

What your calling mash out is refereed to as batch sparging.
I generally mash with Half my total water, and sparge at 170 with the other half for a 5 gallon brew.

No, raising the mash temperature (either with direct heat or adding hot water) to 168˚F (or hotter) without draining the MLT first, is a mash out, not a sparge (of any kind.) This is what the OP was talking about.

Brew on

 

[ericrichards420]

Your right doug293cz, the term mash out dose mean rising the temp to 170, but that isn't possible without some type of rims system.

 

[doug293cz]

Your right doug293cz, the term mash out dose mean rising the temp to 170, but that isn't possible without some type of rims system.

You can add boiling water to the MLT to raise the temperature. There are lots of calculators that will tell you how much water to add based on the volume and temperature of the mash.

Brew on

 

[branman]

Your right doug293cz, the term mash out dose mean rising the temp to 170, but that isn't possible without some type of rims system.

It's possible by taking a portion of your mash and heating it up in a separate pot then adding it back in to reach the 170 degree goal, but I also agree with doug... no need, just batch sparge and keep rolling

 

[JawZziff]

it is also possible to step mash without rims. I think it's called decoction mash? but I'm getting us way off topic. so I digress.

 

[daytondave]

Thanks, you guys are the best!

For clarification, I was planning on fly sparging. Sounds like I can't mash out AND fly sparge using a cooler system. So that leads to the next question, if you could only do one, which one would you do - mash out with a batch sparge, or no mash out with a fly sparge?

If I am over thinking this please let me know.

 

[JawZziff]

I don't see why you couldn't. add enough boiling water to the mash to bring it up to 170, let it sit for 10 minutes then begin sparge with the rest of your water.

 

[ericrichards420]

Fly sparging is more efficient, but on a home brew scale batch sparging is just fine.

 

[branman]

Fly sparging is more efficient, but on a home brew scale batch sparging is just fine.

Not trying to derail the whole topic buuut, that is debatable...

 

[doug293cz]

Not trying to derail the whole topic buuut, that is debatable...

A well done fly sparge has better lauter efficiency than batch sparging, all else being equal. A poorly done fly sparge can have much lower lauter efficiency.

Fly spargers tend to use coarser grain crushes than batch spargers (in order to avoid stuck sparges), and this can lead to lower conversion efficiency than a finer crush if the mash time is too short.

Since mash efficiency equals conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency, there are two ways a fly sparger can sometimes get lower efficiency.

Brew on

 

[ericrichards420]

I don't fly sparge and don't care to. I batch sparge.
I use a single tier system that I build a couple years ago and I brew 10 gallon batches.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Not trying to derail the whole topic buuut, that is debatable...

Not really.

A perfect fly sparge will always exceed a perfect batch sparge.

Perfect fly sparge > perfect batch sparge
mediocre fly sparge ~< mediocre batch sparge
Sloppy fly sparge <~ sloppy batch sparge.

The issue is that very few brewers can get a perfect fly sparge due to not pouring the water perfectly evenly, at the proper speed, or other limitations such as mash tun geometry, false bottom vs braided, etc etc.

Whereas it's extremely easy to perform a near perfect batch sparge. Drain mash tun, add water, stir the crap out of it, then drain the mash tun again.

 

[MagicMatt]

Thanks, you guys are the best!

For clarification, I was planning on fly sparging. Sounds like I can't mash out AND fly sparge using a cooler system. So that leads to the next question, if you could only do one, which one would you do - mash out with a batch sparge, or no mash out with a fly sparge?

If I am over thinking this please let me know.

You're over thinking it.

I too use a cooler MLT, and I do indeed utilize both a mash-out and fly sparging. IMO, a mash-out is almost a necessity when fly sparging, as you want to get your mash up to 168°F to stop the conversion process. You then fly sparge with 168°F water to keep the entire mash at that temp throughout the sparge.

Usually for a 5.5 gallon batch I need about 8.5 gallons of water. About 3.5 gallons go into the mash, which leaves about 5 gallons remaining. How I do it is when I have about 20 minutes left on the mash, I heat up my entire remaining water volume (5 gallons) to about 180°F and transfer my sparge volume to the HLT (about 3.5 gallons), leaving the remaining 1.5 gallons in the kettle to continue on to a boil. Once it boils, it goes into the mash for my mashout step and let it rest for about 10 minutes. By this time the water in my HLT is about 172°F, which by the time it comes out of my sparge arm is exactly 168°F.