water profile/water adjustment

[porterguy]

Never done it. Important? Critical? Where do I start? A good basic resource? Wasn't sure what type of "Search " to do on here, so any help would be appreciated. I've been brewing about ten years and never really looked into it before.

I posted this here because I only BIAB, and didn't see a specifically better option of where to post.

 

[burtom]

From Yooper. look at her first post and that will give you a good start.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/a-brewing-water-chemistry-primer.198460/

 

[ChiknNutz]

Another simple response is, get a test from Ward Labs so you have a starting point.

 

[DuncB]

Water is important. Find out what your supply contains.
Does the local water supply company have the basic info? Contact them and ask for the mineral profile.
Down here we get most of the levels of minerals updated yearly. Better than a guess.
Any other homebrewers in your neighbourhood might have the details from their water test.
Local microbrewery would also know this info.
But as has been said above if you don't know what you've got, you can't decide what you can have.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Important? Critical?

That depends a bit on where you start. I assume you are doing all-grain (since you posted in the BIAB forum). As I dug into water chemistry I started to understand there are really two types of source water. You can have source water that is just not suitable for brewing (metallic flavors, too much sodium, etc.). This is likely a minority of people. You can also have source water that is fit for brewing one category of beers. There is no such thing as "perfect" tap water that is great for brewing Stouts, IPAs, and Pilsners.

Even if you have "good" source water, there is also a wide spectrum. If the mineral content of your source is low, then 1) it might be great for brewing more delicate styles like American Lager, but 2) it is also a great canvas for adjusting to suit other styles. It is much easier to add minerals than to remove/reduce them. If your source water has a high mineral load, or is very high in some specific minerals, you may have to dilute with RO or Distilled to get it where you want for some styles.

By itself, RO or Distilled water is not really great for brewing any styles of beer, but it is blank canvas that can be used to build up a profile that will fit any style of beer (at least to the degree needed for a homebrewer). RO/Distilled also gives you a predictable starting place, where the water out of your faucet likely changes from batch to batch. The downside is that it is not as cheap and convenient as what comes out of your faucet.

As far as pH...if you brew a range of styles, then pH is something you should address for any source water. I brew around my tap water (which has a medium level of minerals). I now know that I can brew a nice Amber Ale without much adjustment to my minerals or pH. I need to add acid to lower the pH for lighter grain bills and I might need to add bicarbonate to raise the pH for dark beers (though only if more than about 10% roasted grains).

I brewed decent beers for a long time just using my tap (treated to remove Chloramine). Looking back, I can understand why I made a better Amber, Brown or (malty) Pale Ale than Stouts or IPAs. Since I started adjusting water, I have seen a noticeable improvement in my beers.

 

[kenmcchord]

To start off with I am hesitant to give any advice here, I find I have more questions that answers mostly. That said I did attend the John Palmer water chemistry class (online) last month and found that to be very helpful.

John listed his top 5 for brewing great beer, water adjustment came in in the #6 position. Things like sanitation, yeast, fermentation temp control and recipe came in ahead in that list. That told me, from the get go, that there's probably a reason people have been making great beer for years without once considering water.

Personally, I am back to brewing after a few years off and I am taking this year to really up my game, which includes moving into electric brewing and taking a deep dive into my water adjustments. But I'm doing that not because I felt like my beer needed that, it's just an aspect of the hobby that I wanted to dig into deeper. It's this sort of thing that makes it fun for me, hence the dive.

I agree whole heartedly that one first step is to get yourself a Ward Labs water test kit. It's easy peasy, just place the order on line, get a sample bottle in the mail, follow the simple instructions and mail it back. A week or so later you get a very detailed report on your water. From there you can have hard data that will make any reading more meaningful to your situation. Alkalinity was (okay - is) a hard topic for me to wrap my mind around, but now I'm finally understanding how that affects my mash pH and I'm now able to predict the proper amount of lactic acid to add to my mash. Does that make the beer better? I dunno, but mostly my fermentations have been doing great, which is always a bonus.

I like reading anything I can get my hands on so that's worked for me, but truly the class with Palmer really turned to corner for me. Before that I found this subject vexing and quite hard to absorb, now I think I'm close to understanding it enough to make some changes that should improve my beer. And that makes this fun for me. One last point, there are online water calculators that you can input your data to which will spit out salt and acid additions, Palmer even has an iOS app for water adjustments. I've tried a few and I'm working with Bru'n Water now. During the last lager (my first) I made, which is currently fermenting, I was able to nail my mash pH exactly to what I had set as a goal. That program has taken a little time for me to fully understand but I believe it to be a superior product to use in water adjustments.

Hope that helps.
cheers

 

[porterguy]

Sorry, all. I forgot to mention that I use 6 gallons of RO water (purchased at the same store I grocery shop) and use 1 to 1 and 1/2 gallons filtered tap water. I'll look into Bru'n Water (or other online calculators someone may recommend). So this may sound like a stupid question, but if this is the water i always start with, do I still need to check the pH, or will one of these calculators preclude the need to do that? I mainly ask because it's $100 or so investment in a good pH tester, and if I need it, I need it. But if I don't, I have that $100 or so for grain, etc.

thank again to everybody!

 

[DuncB]

THere are cheaper pH meters around, you should check the pH but could go for an inaccurate pH strip. Or do a few brews and then do it.

 

[kenmcchord]

So this may sound like a stupid question, but if this is the water i always start with, do I still need to check the pH, or will one of these calculators preclude the need to do that? I mainly ask because it's $100 or so investment in a good pH tester, and if I need it, I need it. But if I don't, I have that $100 or so for grain, etc.

thank again to everybody!

Again I am no one to be giving advice here, but... this all depends on what you're trying to accomplish. In my experience, at first I was trying to read all I could about making sure my mash pH was between 5.2 and 5.6 and the only way I knew how to do that was to test the actual mash pH and make adjustments. In making adjustments at the beginning of a mash I'd find that I needed to give lactic acid time to register its effect in the mash pH, often times that meant I wasn't getting the mash pH "corrected" until 20 - 30 minutes into the mash. John Palmer was quick to say in the class that the effects of mash pH are realized in the first 15 minutes of a mash, give or take, and the process of "chasing the mash pH" has limited, if any benefit; or at least that is what I got from the class.

Now I am focused on understanding the Bru'n water program and making sure I have all my inputs correct. The program will give you recommendations for both salt additions as well as acid additions (or of course if your mash would be too acidic, the program will recommend the proper additions to correct that pH). Palmer did discuss that many professional brewers are testing their mash pH, their first runnings and pre-boil pH and finally their post boil pH. The purpose was to ensure their process was on track and the final product was as good as they can make it. I've taken that approach in that I'm checking my mash pH and pre-boil pH, if it's too high or low I plan to track that data and after some time my hopes are that I begin to understand not only my source water better but also the different grains I am using. And I'll use those notes to help me determine the next brew additions.

Again this all makes it fun for me, I like taking notes and tracking this stuff. I don't always know what to do with that information but I think it helps.

Everything I have read says that pH strips are so much a "ball park" reading that they're probably not worth getting.

Good luck!

 

[DuncB]

But ball park might be better than nothing. I agree they are very subjective.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

So this may sound like a stupid question, but if this is the water i always start with, do I still need to check the pH, or will one of these calculators preclude the need to do that? I mainly ask because it's $100 or so investment in a good pH tester

I would say that if you are starting with a known water source and using reputable water chemistry software, you will make better beer adjusting the pH of your beer based on the software without having a meter, than you would not adjusting the pH because you don't have a meter.

I have a $40 meter that seems to be working okay for me (though I don't have anything to compare it to). Often the software prediction is very close, some times it might be off a bit. I never quite know if it is an issue with my meter, the software (which is really just an estimate), or that my tap water was different that day. I have a Porter recipe that consistently comes in well below what software has predicted...not sure if that is the 10% Crisp Brown Malt causing issues. This last brew of that recipe I added a little extra baking soda and measured 5.4. The beer turned out very nice, but I also fermented it about 2F lower than the last round.

In theory you can adjust your beer, evaluate the taste, then tweak from there...but it would be a slow process and I am not sure I could pick out issues based on pH.

 

[DuncB]

I have same issues with my cheap meter is it right?
You should factor in the storage solution and calibration liquids when you get a meter though whatever the price. Think they cost almost as much as the meter.

 

[ChiknNutz]

Kinda in the market for a pH meter, but have not had one before. I used to have a pool and hot-tub, used a good chemical kit for all the tests so am very familiar with that process. Is there an equivalent process for wort, just using test chemicals (NOT the crappy strips)? I assume not since you likely need clear samples to get accurate color readings. If not, what is a good meter, seeing they start about $10 and go on up from there? I've noticed the thing with all the cheaper ones I've looked at is the calibration needing to be done with every use. Is that common of all meters?

 

[VikeMan]

If not, what is a good meter, seeing they start about $10 and go on up from there? I've noticed the thing with all the cheaper ones I've looked at is the calibration needing to be done with every use. Is that common of all meters?

I like the Milwaukee MW101 and MW102. The Apera pH60 has also apparently tested well, though I can't personally vouche for it. All meters should really be calibrated before a new session. The problem with the cheap ones is that they are often not accurate even when calibrated, and/or they often drift pretty soon after calibration, i.e. within the same session.

 

[kenmcchord]

I personally use the Hanna H198128 pH meter (amazon link). It seems quite accurate and it calibrates fairly quickly, works every brew. The tip is replaceable which I think is a nice plus, I've read they do fail after a while. Roughly $100. Be sure to get calibration fluid with whatever unit you get, you'll want to calibrate it before each use.

 

[DuncB]

Also must get the storage solution.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I'm no expert, so I've found it easiest to just start with RO water and build up the profile I want. It costs me $0.30/gal, so about $3 for a batch of beer.

I do some research for each new recipe that I do to try to figure out a good target profile (mineral content and pH). Then I use Bru'nWater to figure out how to get there. I've been enjoying craft/import beer for over 30 years and have pretty strong opinions on how I want my beers to turn out (I don't like super roasty stouts, for example). I search for how to accent or suppress an aspect of a style and water comes up sometimes. For my stout example, I mash with a pH at the higher end (5.5) and I love my stouts.

Brewing is a hobby for me and, as a software engineer, I don't want to turn it into a bunch of mental gymnastics. For that reason, I don't try to fully understand the chemistry. I just try to understand the tools and the goals. So far, that has worked out very well for me.