Water profile -how to fix...

[Revvy]

Revy: your water is very close to mine.
I just spent way toooo much at brewsmith water profile. Plug your numbers into base water(need to be in PPM, not mg/l). Palmer has a conversion chart if you need to change them over. Also on his page is a list of each mineral and its affects on beers including amounts affecting sweetness, high/low bittering, dark/amber/light beers. After you plug in your base water values; select target(essentially a desired city water) and it will show you the differences between the 2 water profiles. I am making a nut brown ale and choose London. I compared its profile with Palmers information. Seems Londons water is close to what I want for a NBA. After both profiles are entered I adjusted the mineral additions(on left side of page). As I adjusted a mineral I watch the differences change. Still playing w/ that.
Ultimately the thing to do is create your own target water, say stout, enter the needed mineral concentrations and compare to your own profile, then add minerals. I am surprised Brewsmith does not do this. Seems simple to do.
conpewter: There is also a section on brewsmith for dilution. So you enter your water profile, dilute with(for you I am thinking distilled) and enter quantity, then pick desired target profile. The higher CO3 you are the more you dilute. If you don't have brewsmith download a free version for 30 days.
Enough about all of this for now....to be continued Charlie

Thanks Charlie, a lot for this info....Guess I gotta start pluggin numbers.

 

[SteveG]

Edit: not relevant

 

[Revvy]

Ok...I'm seriously math deficient, so firgive me...i'm trying to convert the mg/l to ppm, like Charlie said...and I'm looking at the chart here..

How to Brew - By John Palmer - Reading a Water Report


I am not seeing the conversion formula for Sodium here, or am I misreading the chart, and there is only one formula for converting all the elements in my water report to ppm???

grrr....

 

[SteveG]

Ok...I'm seriously math deficient, so firgive me...i'm trying to convert the mg/l to ppm, like Charlie said...and I'm looking at the chart here..

1mg/l = 1ppm

 

[Revvy]

1mg/l = 1ppm

English please....I've read that all over the web but it means nothing to me especially if you look at chart in Palmer... here's some of it...

To Get From Do This

Ca (mEq/l) Ca (ppm) Divide by 20

Mg (mEq/l) Mg (ppm) Divide by 12.1

HCO3 (mEq/l) HCO3 (ppm) Divide by 61

CaCO3 (mEq/l) CaCO3 (ppm) Divide by 50

So I am seeing various number to divide by for various chemicals but not for sodium in the chart...

Or am I misreading something...

Like I said, I am severly math deficient....so just putting "1mg/l = 1ppm"
means absolutely nothing to me.....are you saying that if my sodium is 8mg/l, then it is 8ppms?

 

[SteveG]

Sorry,

are you saying that if my sodium is 8mg/l, then it is 8ppms?

Yes. That table is getting at the milliequivalents. For example the molecular weight of Ca is roughly 40. (ie. one mole of Ca weighs 40g) That table is dividing by half that amount due to the 2+ charge on a Ca ion... You need the ionic concentrations in milliequivalents to use his formula to determine hardness..

It looks like you already know the hardness of your water, so all these calculations are beyond the scope of what you need to do.

really parts-per-million is talking about mg/kg or 0.001g/1000g and using the density of water (which is about 1...) its a pretty straight forward approximation of 1ppm = 1mg/l

 

[balto charlie]

Revvy: looks like steve has all your needed info.
The numbers I feel are hardest to find is what water profile do you want to end with. Beersmith has city waters around the world. As Conpewter said "we don't know what a brewery does to it's water for brewing".
What Beersmith needs is a beer style water profile. I found, late last night, a list but it's in a book and didn't feel like typing them out. The book is called Beer Captured by Tess and Mark Szamatulski. It also has a list of different water profiles and what mineral amounts needed for different beers.
I went into an LBS yesterday and no one there had any info on water. If it taste good then it is good enough to use. The hunt to learn about water continues but those murky waters are beginning to clear

 

[balto charlie]

Recommended Ion Concentrations

Here's a chart I found. Maybe plugging these values into beersmith target profiles will do what we need.
Homebrewing and water quality

 

[Revvy]

Here is what I found (ppm):

Bicarbonate 240
Calcium 30
Hardness 177
Magnesium 19.6
Sodium 36
Sulfate 16
Chloride 35
Nitrate 4.2

Oh thanks, I didn't noticed you broke em down for me.

Thanks!

 

[conpewter]

Revvy: looks like steve has all your needed info.
The numbers I feel are hardest to find is what water profile do you want to end with. Beersmith has city waters around the world. As Conpewter said "we don't know what a brewery does to it's water for brewing".
What Beersmith needs is a beer style water profile. I found, late last night, a list but it's in a book and didn't feel like typing them out. The book is called Beer Captured by Tess and Mark Szamatulski. It also has a list of different water profiles and what mineral amounts needed for different beers.
I went into an LBS yesterday and no one there had any info on water. If it taste good then it is good enough to use. The hunt to learn about water continues but those murky waters are beginning to clear

I think there is still a lot to research on how to get the best water profile you can. I know that Dublin makes great dry stouts because of it's water profile, they *Probably* don't do much to their water, but who knows? Also maybe there is a better water profile for dry stouts that doesn't exist in a famous brewing city.

For instance Dublin has 53 ppm sulfate in their water, this accentuates hop bitterness (useful in a bitter, pale ale etc) but perhaps not as useful in a stout, maybe it would be better at 20 or even 0? I don't really know but I would like to find more info on the "Ideal" water profile per style. Then I can try to adjust my water as close to that (I won't ever get exact but I can get closer)

 

[balto charlie]

I don't really know but I would like to find more info on the "Ideal" water profile per style.

check out the link I provided, section 3, recommended Ion concentration. It comes from from Zymurgy, '91 This is the missing link!

 

[conpewter]

Hey Revvy,

Tap pH 7.71
Sodium, 8 ppm
Potassium, 1 ppm
Calcium, 29.7 ppm
Magnesium, 6.5 ppm
Manganese 0 ppm
Nitrate, 0 ppm
Sulfate, 20 ppm
Chloride, 7 ppm
Total Alkalinity, 76 ppm
Total Hardness, 98 as CaCO3 (~37 ppm)
Non - Carbonate Hardness 22 ppm

Bicarbonate, 92ppm (calculated from Total Alkalinity)

As a check for your total hardness
Ca hardness as CaC03 = 74
Mg hardness as CaC03 = 26
= 100 (close to the 98 value that they tested for)

You are not really close to any particular brewing city's water, looks like you are between pilsen and london. You do have a profile that will be really easy to build other ones from since you are fairly low on most minerals.

 

[conpewter]

check out the link I provided, section 3, recommended Ion concentration. It comes from from Zymurgy, '91 This is the missing link!

Awesome thank you! I'm getting a water report from Ward Lab just to get very specific and because the report I got from the city was inconsistent with itself (water is usually electrically neutral, yet according to the mineral contents I was given it was not).

Anyway once I get that I'll definitely be making up water recipes from that list.

 

[conpewter]

Ok I ran the numbers on several parts of that chart and they are generally fairly consistant (anion and cations balance) except when concerning their "CO3" column. Basically most of us are going to have bicarbonates HCo3 in our water due to the PH level it is at, so that's what I deal with. (If you have the total alkalinity you can get a very close approximation of your HCo3 content)

Anyway their chart has 60 Co3 for a porter (which seemed low..) and when I used that number as my alkalinity it was not consistant. If on the other hand you double that number it is consistant.

So to use that chart it is easier to replace the Co3 column with a HCo3 column that has double the value of Co3 (Due to HCo3 being twice as effective I read).

 

[Revvy]

Thanks for your work, Con....

I really am only concerned because I want to try my hand at an IPA soon...



Also, would using 5-Star's 5-2 buffer render everything moot though?

 

[conpewter]

I threw this excel sheet together quickly to convert the Co3 to HCo3 as I think it should be (still yet to be tested and checked out). Also included the HowToBrew conversions and a section to record your brewing salts additions so you don't have to calculate every time you brew.

View attachment WaterProfiles.zip

 

[conpewter]

5.2 takes a lot of this guesswork out, but really only with the mash. If you have a lot of sulfates (like good IPA water does) it will help you get more utilization out of your hops, and too much sodium will affect how the beer tastes no matter if you use 5.2 or not. I think 5.2 is very very helpful (and I have some, and use it), but if your water is way out of wack for a style (like me... trying to brew a pale ale) then you need to identify some of the gross differences and correct them even using 5.2

 

[conpewter]

Revvy:

Ideal
STYLE = Pale ale
Ca 100-150
Mg 20
Na 20-30
So4 300-425
Cl 30-50
HCo3 0

Yours
STYLE = Pale ale
Ca 30
Mg 6.5
Na 8
So4 20
Cl 7
HCo3 92


Since there is no good way to get rid of bicarbonates I'm not positive what you'd want to do. Since yours are not way out there (I have 360ppm bicarbonates) I'd probably just brew with them and make sure to use 5.2 in the mash.

If you add 4.2 grams of Epsom salt
1.1 grams of canning salt (table salt)
12.2 grams of Gypsum

You get

Ca 123
So4 298
Mg 20
Na 23
Cl 29
Carb 92

Which is pretty close (except for the bicarbonates) to the ideal pale ale (notice the S04 for more hop bitterness etc)

 

[ChemE]

Revvy:

...Since there is no good way to get rid of bicarbonates I'm not positive what you'd want to do. Since yours are not way out there (I have 360ppm bicarbonates) I'd probably just brew with them and make sure to use 5.2 in the mash...

This isn't true. An RO/DI filter will totally eliminate bicarbonates. Now I totally realize that many people will not care enough about this to spend the $200 but I don't doubt that some will be willing to do so.

I did brew BierMuncher's Black Pearl Porter yesterday and I was able to construct the perfect water for it thanks to my RO/DI filter. I added 7 grams of chalk and 6 grams of salt to 5 gallons of RO/DI to create the following profile:

Ideal Porter/Stout (ideal according to me based on Palmer's descriptions of ions and the actions on the beer)
Ca 148.4
Mg 0
Na 124.8
SO4 0
Cl 192
HCO3 221.2

Only questionable value is the bicarb, it may be better to always keep this close to zero so as not to risk a high mash or sparge pH. My pH remained a constant 5.2 from dough in to the end of fly sparging.

 

[conpewter]

Ok edit to above

No good cheap way to get rid of bicarbonates.

RO = expensive and strips everything out of your water not just bicarbonates
Acid = leaves other componds (phosphates, sulfates, etc.)
Boiling = strips out the calcium as well and won't work if you don't have enough calcium

 

[balto charlie]

Ok I ran the numbers on several parts of that chart and they are generally fairly consistant (anion and cations balance) except when concerning their "CO3" column. Basically most of us are going to have bicarbonates HCo3 in our water due to the PH level it is at, so that's what I deal with. (If you have the total alkalinity you can get a very close approximation of your HCo3 content)

Anyway their chart has 60 Co3 for a porter (which seemed low..) and when I used that number as my alkalinity it was not consistant. If on the other hand you double that number it is consistant.

So to use that chart it is easier to replace the Co3 column with a HCo3 column that has double the value of Co3 (Due to HCo3 being twice as effective I read).

The Co3 column seems off to me as well. Later this week I will play with all of the voluminous notes I have taken. I have read that HCO3 is twice Co3 but in J Palmers line drawing diagram is seems to be only 25% difference. I could be mixing up effective hardness with total hardness:cross:

 

[BrewVegas]

Just got my results back from Ward Labs.

How do I read this?

Thanks!

 

[conpewter]

Looks like you have somewhat hard water as well. I'd compare it to the values given in the links posted earlier (the spreadsheet has been useful for me) and then you can know what additions to make (Downloading BreWater may help)

 

[conpewter]

Got my Ward Lab results and I'm glad I went with them instead of trusting the water department

Ward Lab
pH 7.1
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est 708
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 1.18
Cations / Anions, me/L 12.0 / 12.3
ppm
Sodium, Na 93
Potassium, K 4
Calcium, Ca 90
Magnesium, Mg 40
Total Hardness, CaCO3 392
Nitrate, NO3-N < 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 18
Chloride, Cl 171
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 383
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 314


Water company:
Sodium, Na- 40 mg/l (ppm)
Potassium, K- to low to measure
Calcium, Ca- 70 mg/l (ppm)
Magnesium, Mg to low - Manganese 150 ug/l (ppb)
Total Hardness, CaCO3- 424 Mg/l
Nitrate, NO3-N - 0.18 mg/l (ppm)
Sulfate, SO4-S - 43 mg/l (ppm)
Chloride, Cl - .5-1.2 Free Mg/l (ppm) to 3-3.5 Total mg/l (ppm)
Carbonate, CO3
Bicarbonate, HCO3
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 - 320 mg/l (ppm)


So they totally missed Chloride (maybe mistook for chlorine? Cl2)
Also they were off on most of the rest of them. Anyway I have a solid starting point to make my water profiles now (Looks like I'll almost always be diluting by half with RO water or something)

 

[ChemE]

They also missed your Mg being 40 ppm which is already high enough to cause excessive bitterness. Grains are supposed to be good for another 10+ ppm of magnesium during mashing. I'd cut with RO or just spend the $100 for a decent RO and use RO + brewing salts. Depending on how often you brew one is cheaper than the other.

 

[SteveG]

The city water report is an average of different sampling points... The water coming out of your tap is not going to be the same as the water a block away. We are talking about water, aka the 'universal solvent', it's good at what it does... which is solvating ions. Looks like the take home message is the city water report is a good place to start, but if you want to know what is coming out of your tap and going into your beer... you need to send it to a lab.

 

[Revvy]

The city water report is an average of different sampling points... The water coming out of your tap is not going to be the same as the water a block away.

Hmmm I wonder just how different mine would be, I literally live a block from the water treatment plant...It would be interesting to see what less than an eighth of a mile of pipe would do to it....

 

[balto charlie]

The city water report is an average of different sampling points... The water coming out of your tap is not going to be the same as the water a block away. We are talking about water, aka the 'universal solvent', it's good at what it does... which is solvating ions. Looks like the take home message is the city water report is a good place to start, but if you want to know what is coming out of your tap and going into your beer... you need to send it to a lab.

Good point but I bet tap water taken at different sampling times will also be some what different. I think we need to build a water sampling lab in our kitchens and sample it each time we brew

 

[hokster]

Hey guys,

I'd love it if I could get in on this action.

My water report:

Total Hardness (as CaCo3): 171-206 ppm
ph: 7.2-7.6
Alkalinity: 180-210
Total Dissolved Solids: 101-245 ppm
Chlorine: .9-1.5 ppm
Fluoride: .7-1 ppm
Nitrate: 2-8 ppm
Sulfate: 3-13 ppm
Sodium: 1-7 ppm
Chloride: 1-18 ppm
Magnesium: 13-25 ppm
Iron: <.01 ppm.

 

[WBC]

I think the best any of us can do is to get a city water report and compare with last years report to see if they are somewhat the same and adjust with RO water and Five star 5.2. I say this because it is too hard to do much else and be accurate without having a lab at our disposal to check the water after we try to doctor it. In some cases we might make it worse due to errors in calculations or measurement.