Water profile -how to fix...

[balto charlie]

I think the best any of us can do is to get a city water report and compare with last years report to see if they are somewhat the same and adjust with RO water and Five star 5.2. I say this because it is too hard to do much else and be accurate without having a lab at our disposal to check the water after we try to doctor it. In some cases we might make it worse due to errors in calculations or measurement.

I compared the one I received this year w/ a local brew clubs report from '05 or '02(can't remember). They were close enough for me. So I guess our profiles are relatively accurate.

 

[balto charlie]

Hey guys,

I'd love it if I could get in on this action.

My water report:

Total Hardness (as CaCo3): 171-206 ppm
ph: 7.2-7.6
Alkalinity: 180-210
Total Dissolved Solids: 101-245 ppm
Chlorine: .9-1.5 ppm
Fluoride: .7-1 ppm
Nitrate: 2-8 ppm
Sulfate: 3-13 ppm
Sodium: 1-7 ppm
Chloride: 1-18 ppm
Magnesium: 13-25 ppm
Iron: <.01 ppm.

You look good for dark beers. Read some of conpewters post as his water is similar to yours. He talks about ways to lower your CaCO3; dilution, RO and precipitating out.

 

[conpewter]

I currently use the two attached spreadsheets. The Water Profiles.xls is one I created and has some of the information and conversions gleaned from websites.

The Mash Water Chemistry Calculator - v1.1.xls is from Bearcat Brewmeister. I find that for my water it will solve such that it replaces almost all of my water with distilled (since my water is so high in bicarbonates) So I tend to set the distilled water to whatever I plan on using, then putting an x below, clicking somewhere else to reset the results and then solve using that. That way I can still use some of my water, just compromising on the HCo3 levels.

View attachment Water Calculations.zip

 

[ShortSnoutBrewing]

So I'm filling in my water profile on the Mash Water Chemistry Calculator (I think that was bearcat's). My Residual Alkalinity is coming up 30 points less then on my water report. What would be the cause of this?

 

[remilard]

So I'm filling in my water profile on the Mash Water Chemistry Calculator (I think that was bearcat's). My Residual Alkalinity is coming up 30 points less then on my water report. What would be the cause of this?

The Kohlbach equation that Palmer, Fix, Daniels and others have given is the residual alkalinity of water in a pale malt mash. I doubt your water utility is giving this on your delivered water report. I don't have residual alkalinity on mine at all but I would guess it is on there for some purpose other than predicting mash pH. The residual alkalinity is different based on what you are adding to the water.

 

[conpewter]

I'm not sure why it would do that, I know bearcat updated his formulas since there was an error with water hardness, but it should be fixed now.

On another note, I looked again into the ideal water profiles on my sheet (recommended from earlier in this thread)
Homebrewing and water quality

I just don't believe the Co3 (Carbonates, double for Hco3 - bicarbonates). I really think a stout or porter should have much more than ~150ppm Hco3 (My water is around 300 ppm) and Dublin is at 319. The other ions seem correct for what they are trying to do.

Edit: I did the calculations on my water profile and I was within 1 point of the residual alkalinity reported by the spreadsheet (mine is around 220)

 

[Rumblebelly]

The city water report is an average of different sampling points... The water coming out of your tap is not going to be the same as the water a block away. We are talking about water, aka the 'universal solvent', it's good at what it does... which is solvating ions. Looks like the take home message is the city water report is a good place to start, but if you want to know what is coming out of your tap and going into your beer... you need to send it to a lab.

Actually, you'd wanna draw your brew water and pull a lab sample from it right then and there. I doubt any of us would do that. Just brew on!

At my last job, I used to monitor data coming from a municple drinking water pump station where a online measurements were taken once a minute. If I remember right, it wasn't uncommon to see pH fluctuate >0.5 pH units within a day.

Some cities' systems that I looked at are much more stable, it just depends on the proximity of the treatment plant to the sample source, source water conditions (rarely static), treatment quirks of the plant itself, or if the operator was taking a nap during his shift .

 

[IanIanBoBian]

If I order a water report from Ward labs, do I need to know about Flouride or Iron? Seems like that's the only difference with the more expensive report. So are those two things worth the $10?

 

[ChemE]

I wouldn't. The only thing you can do about either if they are present is use a carbon filter or RO to remove them. All you really care about is if they are present or not since they aren't useful brewing ions. The city's water report should be able to comment well enough as to whether they are present or not and I wouldn't bother quantifying how much there is at any moment in time.

 

[artbrau]

My water is hard (well near Morristown, NJ)and we have a softener. Basically, I already know that dilution with RO water is the basic path to lighter beers but I wanted to compare and contrast so I sent 3 samples to Ward: Straight from the well, softened and RO (Thanks to the HBT'ers for the link to the RO filter from bulk reef supply). Here's what I got:

Sample ID              WELL	SOFT	REV-O
pH                    	7.8	8	7
TDS Est            	347	350	< 6
Total Hardness		228	< 1	< 1
HCO3               	122	116	3
CO3                  	< 1	3	< 1
Chloride            	106	104	< 1
Total Alkalinity 	100	100	3
Calcium           	51	< 1	< 1
Magnesium       	24	< 1	< 1
Sodium             	16	113	< 1
Sulfur                	7	7	< 1
Nitrate                2     	2	< 0.1
Potassium        	1	< 1	< 1

I was surprised at the result. I'm in better shape than I thought. I though I was in a stout-only situation. When I used a home test kit (about 10 years old ) I showed 310ppm of total hardness. The Ward result came in at 228, with 122ppm of HCO3, so I'm in a good range for amber-ish beers. A 2x or 3x cut with RO gets me to the pilsener range with enough calcium and magnesium still there.

Hopefully this gives you a more precise sense of what various treatments do. Obviously the softener doesn't help cut the HCO3 which is what you want to reduce in hard water. It does strip the calcium and magnesium which your yeasties need. The RO does what is supposed to but, still, it was comforting to test to know that it actually works.

 

[ChemE]

...and RO (Thanks to the HBT'ers for the link to the RO filter from bulk reef supply).

You're welcome; glad to help out.

 

[conpewter]

My water is hard (well near Morristown, NJ)and we have a softener. Basically, I already know that dilution with RO water is the basic path to lighter beers but I wanted to compare and contrast so I sent 3 samples to Ward...

Great results! Very good to know that the RO does what it needs, and also that the softner just strips out calcium (For some reason I was under the impression it removed bicarbonates). Anyway once again shows that softened water is really bad for brewing.

 

[Mike123]

What do you use for water when making ales? What do you use when making lagers? I'm buying "Spring Water" and using that. Any information you could pass on would be greatly appreciated.

I've been thinking about buying a charcoal filter and tinkering with balancing the chemical composition for the type of beer I am trying to make.

I'd like to benefit from your experience with LV water.