Water profile and outcomes

[gyllstromk]

Hi all,

After several failed attempts at a good IPA I need to figure out the problem, and I suspect the water profile may be the culprit. My beers are turning out with a very harsh bitterness and almost none of the actual hop flavors coming through. I've read about sulfate and chloride to sulfate ratios being important in hop flavors. I'm using Palmer's spreadsheet to figure out my water situation but I'm hoping someone here can steer me in the right direction.

My profile:

Calcium: 7.73
Magnesium: 2.67
Alkalinity as CaCO3: 37
Sodium: 28
Chloride: 11
Sulfate: 31-37 (no average provided)
Water PH: 8.15

It seems to be pretty soft water. Is there anything here which indicates that an IPA is a nonstarter for this water, or should I investigate other aspects of my process?

 

[Pangea]

Do you dry hop? I find that my pale ales have much less hop profile (both taste and smell) when I don't dry hop.

Also, in my opinion the timing of hop additions makes more impact on perceived hop taste and smell than you would get from the water profile. You're talking about a lot of hops in an IPA, which should have a greater impact on hoppiness than a couple ppm of chems in the water. When are you adding flavor and aroma hops and how much? Post a recipe and we may be able to help even more. I find a big difference in aroma if I add hops at 5 minutes left versus 1 minute left, for example.

My IPAs come out fine (to me at least) and I've used everything from all distilled to spring to tap water. (I prefer spring water for all my brews now - but all tasted like good, hoppy IPAs regardless of the water).

 

[gyllstromk]

I do dry hop. Beyond water profile issues, I suspect two other culprits:

1) leaving dry hops in too long. Out of laziness I left dry hops in for over 2 weeks and did a poor job of filtering them out. could be leaving residual, tannic bitterness
2) too many ibus. accounting for water boiloff (which I originally grossly underestimated) my IPAs have all been 120+ IBU. This is probably way too high. The hoppy flavor is almost totally flat and probably dominated by the tannic bitterness. However, I did expect some of the citrusy/piney aspects of my hops to emerge, which they never did

 

[yorkbrew]

I'll agree to the dry hopping. I think it's the best way to get flavour and aroma in your beer.

If you want to investigate water profiles check out these links:
John Palmer's Residual Alkalinity
Podcast with John Palmer about water profiles.

The podcast is part of a 4 hour water-ganza, all the ins and outs of adjusting your water. It's made by the guys at the brewing network and has a lot of good info.

 

[nealf]

Dry-hopping would be the absolute best way to increase your hop aroma... however, your water is really soft for an IPA. Sulfate, to the best of my knowledge, accentuates bitterness, which is not what you asked about, but here is the info anyway.

I would definitely up the Ca and the SO4:

Sulfate (SO4-2)
Molecular Weight = 96.0
Equivalent Weight = 48.0
Brewing Range = 50-150 ppm for normally bitter beers, 150-350 ppm for very bitter beers
The sulfate ion also combines with Ca and Mg to contribute to permanent hardness. It accentuates hop bitterness, making the bitterness seem drier, more crisp. At concentrations over 400 ppm however, the resulting bitterness can become astringent and unpleasant, and at concentrations over 750 ppm, it can cause diarrhea. Sulfate is only weakly alkaline and does not contribute to the overall alkalinity of water.

Calcium (Ca+2)
Atomic Weight = 40.0
Equivalent Weight = 20.0
Brewing Range = 50-150 ppm.
Calcium is the principal ion that determines water hardness and has a +2 charge. As it is in our own bodies, calcium is instrumental to many yeast, enzyme, and protein reactions, both in the mash and in the boil. It promotes clarity, flavor, and stability in the finished beer. Calcium additions may be necessary to assure sufficient enzyme activity for some mashes in water that is low in calcium. Calcium that is matched by bicarbonates in water is referred to as "temporary hardness". Temporary hardness can be removed by boiling (see Bicarbonate). Calcium that is left behind after the temporary hardness has been removed is called "permanent hardness".

 

[brewdude76]

The kind of bittering hops you use could also be the culprit. An ounce of Warrior will produce a cleaner and less harsh bitterness than an ounce or 1.5 ounces of Galena or some other common bittering hop.

 

[beesy]

the only real way to tell if you have a ph issue is to measure it (accurate strips or ph meter). that being said, from the tastes you describe, it may be time to get yourself some gypsum or try the ph 5.2 mash lock. high ph is typically described as causing bitey hoppy beers and causes extra tannin extraction from the husks in your mash and lowers effeciency. If you are getting a nasty harsh bite, it very well could be alkalinity too high in your mashes. Gypsum can help overcome this as well as add hardness to your water in the form on calcium. you could also try some citric acid, lactic acid or phospheric acid to bring your ph down.

Just a preference, but I always remove my dry hop at 7 days max.

 

[ajf]

Your water looks very much like mine, and I have no trouble making IPA's.
I add about 16 grams Gypsum and 2 grams of salt to each 10 gallons of brewing water.
Works like a charm. In my case, that gets the Ca up to 100 ppm, the SO4 to 250 and the Cl to 30.

-a.

 

[Bumbler]

I hope it's not to late to add my half-cent.

Hi all,

After several failed attempts at a good IPA I need to figure out the problem, and I suspect the water profile may be the culprit.

I have similar water.
CA 15
MG 3
SO4 8
Na 7
CL 2
caCO3 47

Every time I read my brew books they say don't worry about the water. So I didn't worry. I've since changed. I don't worry about my water but I address it's deficiencies for each style. I soon realized there's wasn't a lot of buffering going on and the PH was all over the board. As soon as I got my PH under control, with a quality PH meter, my extreme hop astringency went away. I now use mash PH 5.2 and adjust the minerals for flavor. I've learned in water such as mine that mineral additions have a huge impact upon flavor and mouthfeel.