Water Modification Videos, TH's Spreadsheet

[Bobby_M]

Looks right to me.

 

[lschiavo]

Joe,

Looks great at a quick glance. I like the mods. Good job!

 

[martinworswick]

i'm planning on brewing a stout tomorrow and using the following additions-

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 29
Mg: 4
Na: 2
Cl: 1
SO4: 8
HCO3: 82

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 6 / 9
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 5 / 7.5
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 1.5 / 2.25
MgSO4: 2.5 / 3.75
NaHCO3: 7 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 135 / 135
Mg: 14 / 14
Na: 86 / 36
Cl: 33 / 33
SO4: 51 / 51
CaCO3: 359 / 249

RA (mash only): 254 (26 to 31 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.65 (Bitter)

hows this sound?

cheers
martin

 

[lschiavo]

i'm planning on brewing a stout tomorrow and using the following additions-

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 29
Mg: 4
Na: 2
Cl: 1
SO4: 8
HCO3: 82

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 6 / 9
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 5 / 7.5
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 1.5 / 2.25
MgSO4: 2.5 / 3.75
NaHCO3: 7 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 135 / 135
Mg: 14 / 14
Na: 86 / 36
Cl: 33 / 33
SO4: 51 / 51
CaCO3: 359 / 249

RA (mash only): 254 (26 to 31 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.65 (Bitter)

hows this sound?

cheers
martin

Do you want this bitter? I always thought of a stout as more balanced. That is how I adjusted my water anyway. It is still aging but the sample was great.

 

[martinworswick]

does this look better? i'm only just starting to use salts and i wanted to make sure i was on the right track.


Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 29
Mg: 4
Na: 2
Cl: 1
SO4: 8
HCO3: 82

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 6 / 9
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 5 / 7.5
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 2.5 / 3.75
MgSO4: 2.5 / 3.75
NaHCO3: 7 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 147 / 147
Mg: 14 / 14
Na: 86 / 36
Cl: 54 / 54
SO4: 51 / 51
CaCO3: 359 / 249

RA (mash only): 245 (25 to 30 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 1.06 (Balanced)

 

[EvilBrewer]

I've read through this entire thread and I saw some references to "weighing" out the actual salts in teaspoon measurements (different volumes for different salts). Seems to me that this introduces a lot of room for error--especially when you're going through such trouble to calculate the correct amounts using the spreadsheet. If I'm wrong, and it's not that important, please lemme know.

Does anyone use a scale for these measurements? My scale only measures out grams in whole numbers...so that won't work. I brew 5 gallon batches.

Any recommendations on a good scale for this?

 

[Netflyer]

I weigh mine out, I agree - I would never go by the tsp method. You can get a cheap jewelers scale for under 20 bucks that is accurate to .01g ... I also believe we should test our water after we adjust it to make sure we hit the target or at least make sure the RA and Cl:SO4 ratio is what we were shooting for.

 

[-TH-]

Does anyone use a scale for these measurements? My scale only measures out grams in whole numbers...so that won't work. I brew 5 gallon batches.

Any recommendations on a good scale for this?

I bought mine on ebay for around $20. The brand is Digiweigh. It works great. Type ".01 gram scale" on ebay and you'll get plenty to choose from.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm on the fence here. Although I have a scale that is supposed to be accurate to .1 grams, I found that it's not really sensitive enough. It seems like it will get hung up on a number for a bit and then jump. It could be that mine is 0-500 grams. Maybe the range is too high to really be sensitive to .1 gram changes.

 

[EvilBrewer]

I bought mine on ebay for around $20. The brand is Digiweigh. It works great. Type ".01 gram scale" on ebay and you'll get plenty to choose from.

Thanks for the response...I'll check that out.

 

[nostalgia]

Although I have a scale that is supposed to be accurate to .1 grams, I found that it's not really sensitive enough. It seems like it will get hung up on a number for a bit and then jump.

I have had a similar problem with every digital scale I've ever used. My solution is to tap the platform every time I make an addition. It wakes the scale up to force it to re-read the weight.

-Joe

 

[Reelale]

I weigh mine out, I agree - I would never go by the tsp method. You can get a cheap jewelers scale for under 20 bucks that is accurate to .01g ... .

IMHO, using an accurate measuring teaspoon is probably good enough. A few micrograms give or take will not make or break a batch. It's not that critical based on volume alone.

I also believe we should test our water after we adjust it to make sure we hit the target or at least make sure the RA and Cl:SO4 ratio is what we were shooting for.

Uh, I thought that was the purpose of the spreadsheet. Testing water for each batch/style is a non-starter, unless you happen to own a lab.

 

[martinworswick]

i use metric and brew in litres and i would like to alter the necessary formulas so i can input litres in boxes d9 and e9, anyone any good with spreadsheets? is this a straightforward alteration?
cheers
martin

 

[studmonk3y]

i use metric and brew in litres and i would like to alter the necessary formulas so i can input litres in boxes d9 and e9, anyone any good with spreadsheets? is this a straightforward alteration?
cheers
martin

It would be easier to add the conversion yourself in a couple of blank cells. For instance in cell G8 enter the formula "=F8*0.264". Then input your volume in liters in cell F8, and G8 will be the equivalent volume in gallons, which you can then type into D8 or wherever.

 

[Reelale]

+1 to above. Alternatively, you could just remove the conversion factor in cell D32 (D9*3.785). Just remove every instance of 3.785. It looks like that is the only place that converts everything to gallons, as ppm is already metric. I could find no other conversion for E9 as volume is volume.

 

[Netflyer]

IMHO, using an accurate measuring teaspoon is probably good enough. A few micrograms give or take will not make or break a batch. It's not that critical based on volume alone.
Uh, I thought that was the purpose of the spreadsheet. Testing water for each batch/style is a non-starter, unless you happen to own a lab.

Using an accurate measuring tsp does what for you? You use a chart and you see how much an accurate tsp of each salt should weigh? How do you deal with intervals of that amount? How do you tsp out 2.5g of MgSO4 accurately? Micrograms are 1/1,000,000 of a gram and frankly if you can measure w/in a few millionths of a gram with your magic tsp more power to you. Are we not trying to do something extra special when we fix our water? Go to the 'next level' in brewing? Why bother if your not going to weigh the salts out... Check out one of these scales for under $25 that is accurate to the .01 and don't kid yourself about tsp accuracy. If you want consistency you have to weigh stuff out, you're better than a tsp go the extra mile

http://www.scales-n-tools.com/index.php?main_page=specials&gclid=CPW_w_SbzaACFctx5QodUXwFzw

As for what the spreadsheet is for, it is to help you figure out how much salt you should add. It doesn't take the place of testing your water before or after the addition of salts. If you add the correct amount you should be at the value the spreadsheet predicts. Depending upon how serious you want to get you can purchase some relatively inexpensive tests for at least the crucial part of the water. First get your water AG tested at Wards. Then use these crucial test kits to make sure you water is still where Wards said it was BEFORE you add salts, then add the salts and then make sure you hit your mark. I totally understand that people don't have labs full labs but you can get chloride, sulfate, total alk, total hardness, magnesium, and calcium test kits and easily calculate your RA and your Cl:SO4 ratio. (I'm crazy and I do this) Again, only if you are want to go for extreme consistency in your product. It would matter in some beer styles more than others also, bitters as an example. If I'm going for a 1:10 Cl:SO4 ratio I want to know I've hit it or gotten really close.

 

[kal]

0.01g scales are cheap. No reason not to have one.

I use this one:

Link: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.15002
Cost: $11.57 shipped

I also purchased this "Professional Precision Digital Scale 5g Calibration Weight" see how accurate the scale was:

Link: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.20010
Cost: $1.80 shipped

Total cost to have these shipped to my door: $13.37

Kal

 

[Reelale]

Using an accurate measuring tsp does what for you? You use a chart and you see how much an accurate tsp of each salt should weigh? How do you deal with intervals of that amount?.

Yep, I just added a conversion factor for each mineral from grams to tsp. in the spreadsheet. I round up/down to the nearest value in grams that keeps me within recommended range.

How do you tsp out 2.5g of MgSO4 accurately?

2.5 g of MgSO4 (my formulation) is .56 tsp. I just add a heaping 1/2 tsp. and call it good.

Micrograms are 1/1,000,000 of a gram and frankly if you can measure w/in a few millionths of a gram with your magic tsp more power to you. Are we not trying to do something extra special when we fix our water? Go to the 'next level' in brewing? Why bother if your not going to weigh the salts out... Check out one of these scales for under $25 that is accurate to the .01 and don't kid yourself about tsp accuracy. If you want consistency you have to weigh stuff out, you're better than a tsp go the extra mile

As for what the spreadsheet is for, it is to help you figure out how much salt you should add. It doesn't take the place of testing your water before or after the addition of salts. If you add the correct amount you should be at the value the spreadsheet predicts. Depending upon how serious you want to get you can purchase some relatively inexpensive tests for at least the crucial part of the water. First get your water AG tested at Wards. Then use these crucial test kits to make sure you water is still where Wards said it was BEFORE you add salts, then add the salts and then make sure you hit your mark. I totally understand that people don't have labs full labs but you can get chloride, sulfate, total alk, total hardness, magnesium, and calcium test kits and easily calculate your RA and your Cl:SO4 ratio. (I'm crazy and I do this) Again, only if you are want to go for extreme consistency in your product. It would matter in some beer styles more than others also, bitters as an example. If I'm going for a 1:10 Cl:SO4 ratio I want to know I've hit it or gotten really close.

I stand corrected, I meant milligrams If you like to test/treat/test go for it. I don't see the utility. If it works for you and your process then by all means continue. I am buying a scale though, see below.

0.01g scales are cheap. No reason not to have one.

I use this one:

Link: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.15002
Cost: $11.57 shipped

I also purchased this "Professional Precision Digital Scale 5g Calibration Weight" see how accurate the scale was:

Link: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.20010
Cost: $1.80 shipped

Total cost to have these shipped to my door: $13.37

Kal

Just ordered. That price is equal to a set of "precision" spoons. Thanks for the link. I'll weigh the Professional Precision Digital Scale 5g Calibration Weight on a laboratory scale to see if it is actually 5g.

 

[Netflyer]

I am buying a scale though, see below.
Just ordered.

Seriously, please let us know how the spoons stack up when you get the scale.

:rockin:

 

[nostalgia]

I've always been a fan of balances over digital scales. Besides my feeling that they're more accurate, I like the fact that I can set the weight I want and just add stuff until it balances. Or maybe it just takes me back to fond memories of high school chem lab

To that end, I found this little gem on Ebay for $10 shipped. It weighs up to 4 grams with 1/20 gram accuracy. To make it even nicer, this is a new old stock model that was still made in the USA.

In the hopper is 1/4 teaspoon of Kosher salt, which balances at 1.35 grams.



-Joe

 

[Mirilis]

So I use RO water (in the sheet I just put all 0's as everwhere I listen it is compared to Distilled). I came up with this water that I want to use on an Oktoberfest. The beer is 11 SRM and fairly balanced. Im thinking I did ok figuring this out but id welcome advice.

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 0
Mg: 0
Na: 0
Cl: 0
SO4: 0
HCO3: 0

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 4.25 / 6.5
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 3 / 4.588235294
CaSO4: 1 / 1.529411765
CaCl2: 1.5 / 2.294117647
MgSO4: 2 / 3.058823529
NaHCO3: 1 / 0
NaCl: 1 / 1.529411765
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 114 / 114
Mg: 12 / 12
Na: 41 / 31
Cl: 83 / 83
SO4: 83 / 83
CaCO3: 128 / 106

RA (mash only): 40 (8 to 13 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.99 (Balanced)

 

[Reelale]

Seriously, please let us know how the spoons stack up when you get the scale.

:rockin:

Man, that scale is coming from Hong Kong! I'll let you know when/if it gets here!

So I use RO water (in the sheet I just put all 0's as everwhere I listen it is compared to Distilled). I came up with this water that I want to use on an Oktoberfest. The beer is 11 SRM and fairly balanced. Im thinking I did ok figuring this out but id welcome advice.

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 0
Mg: 0
Na: 0
Cl: 0
SO4: 0
HCO3: 0

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 4.25 / 6.5
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 3 / 4.588235294
CaSO4: 1 / 1.529411765
CaCl2: 1.5 / 2.294117647
MgSO4: 2 / 3.058823529
NaHCO3: 1 / 0
NaCl: 1 / 1.529411765
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 114 / 114
Mg: 12 / 12
Na: 41 / 31
Cl: 83 / 83
SO4: 83 / 83
CaCO3: 128 / 106

RA (mash only): 40 (8 to 13 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.99 (Balanced)

No expert, but looks good for a balanced 11 SRM beer. Just wondering why you added Na, although 2 grams is not much. And couldn't you achieve your desired RA with one addition of Ca? Either gypsum, CaCl,
OR chalk?

 

[ekjohns]

this is awesome minus one thing which would make it LEGENDARY!!! is there a way to add a drop down menu with the salt ranges for beer types or am i missing some other beer tool that already tells you that?

 

[Bobby_M]

Well, it's sort of a function of the beer region but no one can conclusively agree that matching a beer style's original region's profile is even the right way to do it.

 

[wheelerc6]

I am going to brew a strong Scottish ale tomorrow and do not have any calcium sulfate or calcium chloride. Calcium Sulfate is gypsum...can I buy the gypsum at HomeDepot?

Is there a form of calcium chloride that I can buy locally....nutrition store, grocery, etc..?

I live in a state where there are no brew stores and I do not want to pay $7 to have this delivered.

 

[artguy]

Really helpful thread. Thanks to everyone!

Just to make sure I understand one thing, when you add salts (like gypsum, calcium chloride, and epsom) to lower the RA and mash pH, is it safe to assume that the pH will remain in the appropriate range through the sparge (I do a double batch sparge)?

 

[kal]

Really helpful thread. Thanks to everyone!

Just to make sure I understand one thing, when you add salts (like gypsum, calcium chloride, and epsom) to lower the RA and mash pH, is it safe to assume that the pH will remain in the appropriate range through the sparge (I do a double batch sparge)?

Your first batch sparge, no, since you're not adding new water.
Yoru second batch spage, yes, it'll go up slightly but not that much unless your sparge water happens to have a really high pH. Most drinking water's around 7 pH in most cities. Some are bit higher. Some a bit lower. Most are higher than the mash pH you want (5.2) so in the 2nd and follow-on batch sparges you'll find that the pH will be slightly higher.

Not usually an issue for batch spargers. Most don't worry about it. More of an issue for fly (continuous) spargers.

My city's water pH is high (8-9 pH) and I fly sparge so I use a tiny bit of lactic acid to lower the pH of my sparge water down to around 6 just to be safe. (I measure with a pH meter). Combinations of high pH, temperature, time (slow fly sparge), low gravity (under 1.010-1.012) can extract grain husk tannins near the end of fly sparging.

When in doubt taste your wort coming out of your sparge near the end. If the gravity's low and you taste tannins, use water instead to top up the boil kettle. I always taste just out of curiousity too. A good thing to do all the way through the brewing process from crushing grains to kegging/bottling.

Kal

 

[artguy]

Thanks, kal, very helpful. At about 6.6 my water pH isn't bad, but I've been getting consistent astringency (in my lighter beers especially), so I've been wondering whether the pH was getting a bit too high in the third runnings. Obviously I need to get myself some basic pH strips to check, and I'll also look at maybe adding some acid to the sparge water. I just finally looked up my water profile and the RA is on the high side for paler ales, so I'm wondering whether that may be the cause of my astringency problem. Thanks again.

 

[jimba009]

Howdy folks, long time no brewing. Looking to get back into it this weekend (thank goodness) and have a quick question. I use a Berkey Black filter for my water and it states that it removes 99.999% of Chlorine, am I in effect needing to add chlorine back in?

 

[TripleHopped]

Howdy folks, long time no brewing. Looking to get back into it this weekend (thank goodness) and have a quick question. I use a Berkey Black filter for my water and it states that it removes 99.999% of Chlorine, am I in effect needing to add chlorine back in?

You don't want any chlorine in your water.