Water chemistry Primer questions/advice

[optimatored]

I am saying that no stout has ever been brewed with water as alkaline as that which would result from the addition of this much CaCO3 (except by homebrewers following the same advice you propose to take) or, put another way, none of the well known brewing cities have water that alkaline. If they did no one would locate a brewery there.

From another perspective: if you were to make a mash with totally deionized water it will come to some pH. For a base malt that will be 5.75 - 5.8. With acid malts (dark crystal, roast) it will be lower. In my experiments and brewing I find that 10% roast barley produces something around 5.5 whereas 30% gives me 5.2. If I added chalk to the water mash pH would be appreciably higher and I don't want higher. In fact I want lower in my brewing where I use 10% roast barley but live with 5.5 and the result is a very good (IMO) stout. If I added some chalk to the water in order to be authentic (i.e. to represent Dublin water) the pH would go up but if I added reasonable amounts it would not be by that much - say to 5.6 which would still be OK but inching up. If I added as much as you propose the result would be a pasty, chalky, alkaselzer beer - flat and dull. At least that's what people who have followed programs like the one you are suggesting have reported to me.

You need to understand that the EZ and Palmer spreadsheets do not model carbonate additions correctly. To do so they would have to be appreciably more complicated than they are. IOW the results of the addition you propose will not be Ca = 201 nor alkalinity = 364. If you dump all that chalk into 4.25 gal of water it will not dissolve. If you allow it to settle and come to equilibrium you will wind up with hardness and alkalinity both about 50 ppm and both as CaCO3. This would not be an unreasonable level but would leave most of the chalk on the bottom of the HLT and the question would be "Why did I put it in in the first place?" If you stir it all up and mash with the suspension or add it all to the mash that is when you will realize all the negative effects.

You can certainly be stubborn if you wish and it might be a good learning experience for you. But first you might want to read through some of the posts in this thread focusing on other peoples' experiences.

I understand that the bucks for a pH meter may not be available so soon after Xmas but I strongly encourage brewers to make this investment as soon as they can. If you had a pH meter to hand you would only add chalk to beer if it were really necessary, would only use 5.2 once and would be secure in the knowledge that mash pH was under control. With meters available for under $100 they are a lot more accessible to homebrewers than they used to be.

This makes good sense now. There is a new version of the EZ spreadsheet I am using... and after reading through many more posts, I do not plan on adding any chalk and worrying more on pH and not color. Thanks AJ

 

[RonRock]

Wow a lot to digest in this thread.

I finally ordered my PH meter today, then read all 10 pages.

My next brew will be the best ever, I think I'll make it my house brew. LOL

 

[djt17]

Wow a lot to digest in this thread.

I finally ordered my PH meter today, then read all 10 pages.

My next brew will be the best ever, I think I'll make it my house brew. LOL

+1, my brews have become MUCH better since following the advice of ajdelange. Specifically; not adding minerals just to get to certain profiles.

 

[EvilBrewer]

+1, my brews have become MUCH better since following the advice of ajdelange. Specifically; not adding minerals just to get to certain profiles.

Same here. For anyone reading this post looking for answers on how to get a better beer: I tried just about everything within reason and was still not getting where I wanted. My beers were good in most respects but they just didn't have that "wow" factor. I gave them to several people to try, including the owners of my LHBS. They mostly said it tasted fine and couldn't really offer any constructive advice. Very frustrating. I spent almost a year tweaking one little thing each batch (trying to mimic water profiles from different geographies using spreadsheets, mostly).

Long story short, I used the primer from the first post in this thread, and made sure to keep my pH within 5.2-5.3 range during my mash...and it has been the best beer I've ever brewed. Hands down.

 

[Hermit]

Same here. For anyone reading this post looking for answers on how to get a better beer: I tried just about everything within reason and was still not getting where I wanted. My beers were good in most respects but they just didn't have that "wow" factor. I gave them to several people to try, including the owners of my LHBS. They mostly said it tasted fine and couldn't really offer any constructive advice. Very frustrating. I spent almost a year tweaking one little thing each batch (trying to mimic water profiles from different geographies using spreadsheets, mostly).

Long story short, I used the primer from the first post in this thread, and made sure to keep my pH within 5.2-5.3 range during my mash...and it has been the best beer I've ever brewed. Hands down.

Yeah. Problem there are so many things to tweak with water and I don't think I have ever seen anyone try to do a comprehensive tabulation of what each did, let alone what they do in varying combinations. I think that led many of us to take simplistic, yet wrong, approaches like profiles based on beer color only or 'historical' water profiles. That only made matters more confusing/worse. In reality this is like a SMASH for water.

 

[SC_Ryan]

I'm proud to report that I just took a leap of faith and followed the primer instructions for the "porter/stout" for my dark brown ale. It is a 24 SRM beer with over a pound and a half of roasted malt. (10 gallon batch) I actually mixed gypsum and cal chlor 50/50 because it's an "American Brown" but I followed the 1tsp per 5 gallon to the t adding absolutely no carbonate. I was nervous because of the numbers I was getting from the spread sheets but I'm happy to report that testing my pH 10 minutes into the mash.... Exactly 5.2. Booya! Beer time!

:cheers:

 

[RonRock]

I need a little help with my water. Here it is,


Ward Labs Report:

Sodium, Na 35
Potassium, K 2
Calcium, Ca 102
Magnesium, Mg 34
Total Hardness, CaCO3 397
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.9 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 24
Chloride, Cl 1
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 433
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 355


So in an effort to get this water down to a brewing water I went to EZ Water. Punched in the numbers, and reduced with RO water by 75%. Also added'

Lactic Acid (ml): 2



Here is what I came up with:


Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 26 / 26
Mg: 9 / 9
Na: 9 / 9
Cl: 0 / 0
SO4: 18 / 18
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.01 / 0.01

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 29
RA: 6
Estimated pH: #DIV/0!


This brings all levels down to a soft water except Calcium which is at 26ppm. So is this a good starting point? The first step in prepairing water with this method is to add CalciumChloride. Since my water is already a bit high in Calcium I'm not sure.

Or am I missing the boat with my water and should approach this a different way than 75% dilution and addition of Lactic Acid?

 

[ajdelange]

Just the 3:1 dilution would get your alkalinity down to 90 ppm and RA down to 67. You don't say what volume you are treating or what the starting pH is but assuming the former is 5 gal and the latter 7.0 adding 2 mL of 88% lactic acid would drop the pH to 6.68, but the alkalinity and RA don't change much (91 and 68) because you added more lactate ion (which is somewhat less alkaline than bicarbonate ion) than you reduced highly alkaline bicarbonate ion. To reduce alkalinity and RA you would need a stronger acid than lactic e.g. hydrochloric or sulfuric.

Assuming, again, a 5 gal batch and assuming that you are using 7 pounds of grain 1% of that would be .01*7*454 = 32 grams sauermalz and assuming that is 2% lactic acid that would be equivalent to 0.64 grams of lactic acid for each 0.1 pH unit drop according to the 1% per 0.1 pH rule of thumb. Two mL of 88% acid corresponds to 2.1 grams of lactic acid so you might expect a drop of about 0.3 pH units. So yes, this seems reasonable and you don't have to supplement calcium. You have effectively no chloride, however, and chloride is generally thought to have a beneficial effect. So you might want to dilute further (5 or 6 to 1) and add some calcium chloride. This would also lower the RA somewhat.

 

[RonRock]

Thanks AJ, I did not think the volume would matter. But for the EZ Water I had to put in a volume. I just went with 10 gallons as a baseline. I also did not have a PH because I did not have a recipe to begin with. I was just trying to get a base water as a point to begin. And I used EZ Water as an easy to do my calculations.

 

[ajdelange]

In terms of what the acid does to the water (i.e. how much 2 mL lactic acid changes its pH and alkalinity if it is strong acid) the volume and initial pH do matter very much. OTOH the pH drop per percent sauermalz depends only on the weight of main grist which is, of course, related to the amount of water.

You don't really need a spreadsheet to calculate the effects of dilution. Part of the goal WRT to this primer is to free brewers from the necessity of using spreadsheets which, as this particular example shows, can be quite deceptive with respect to the actual alkalinity and pH calculated when weak acids are added to water. For dilutions with RO (DI water) just divide by the dilution ratio. If the calcium is 355 and the dilution 9:1 the calcium is 35.5. This even works for alkalinity (approximately and pH must be less than 8.5 or so).

 

[SC_Ryan]

Was that measured with a meter or strips? What temp?

Tested with a meter at about 75*. I tested it again 30 min later at about 70* and got the same result.

 

[SC_Ryan]

Quick question. I know I can weigh it myself, but a teaspoon of calcium chloride or gypsum is roughly 5 g correct?

Edit: One more question. Is baking soda suitable for raising mash pH if I undershoot?

 

[ajdelange]

Yes, a tsp of each weighs about 5 g but there are questions as to how tightly the salt is packed, whether the teaspoonful is level or 'heaping' etc. so it is always preferable to weigh. Then again, super accuracy is not required here.

Yes, sodium bicarbonate can be used but it has a bit more than half the pH raising power of calcium carbonate and calcium carbonate, of course, increases calcium which is always good. The bicarb will react more quickly than calcium chloride though.

Another question for you: you mention 1.5 lbs roast malt. What was the rest of the grain bill?

 

[SC_Ryan]

I don't have the recipe in front of me, but off the top of my head it was

20 lbs. 2 row
1 lbs Vienna
.75 lbs Cry60
.40 lbs Cry120
4 oz black patent
and I think the rest of the roast malt was 50/50 Pale Chocolate (200 srm) and Chocolate (500 srm)

This was kind of a "leftovers" beer that I brewed last summer and it turned out fantastic. Hopped with Goldings if you are curious.

 

[Hermit]

I was at $1.50 night at the local watering hole the other night and saw a guy salting his beer. I haven't done this since college and had forgotten about this practice. I searched the site to see if it had any real value and came up with a thread with this post.

Actually salt will mellow out the bitterness. This is a major way that salt enhances other flavors, by reducing bitterness - it surpresses harsh flavors. Adding salt to a beer will bring out the malt flavors. The loss of carbonation that you also get will reduce the sharpness and enhance the malty flavor.

A great way to familiarize this affect of salt is test it with some tonic water (regular, not diet). First taste the tonic water, then take a good lick of some salt, and then taste the tonic water again. I guarantee that you will be surprised! There is as much sugar in regular tonic water as there is in a standard soda, but you don't notice it as much because of the bitterness of the quinine. The salt masks the quinine and it tastes like real sugary soda water.

I've done this many times with my students and they are always surprised. One of these days I'll have to try it with a fairly bitter beer as it should work there also. It is common knowledge that the more bitter a beer is the less you notice the malt flavors and vice versa. Maybe this is why salty snacks and beer are such a great combo. The salt smoothes out the flavors in the beer.

Would the calcium chloride be playing a similar role here?

 

[ajdelange]

So you had about 12% acid producing malts (i.e. roast and dark crystal - not sauermalz) and got 5.2 pH at room temperature. That's what I wanted to get "into the record" on this thread.

 

[ajdelange]

I was at $1.50 night at the local watering hole the other night and saw a guy salting his beer. I haven't done this since college and had forgotten about this practice. I searched the site to see if it had any real value and came up with a thread with this post.



Would the calcium chloride be playing a similar role here?

IMO, yes.

 

[EvilBrewer]

So you had about 12% acid malts and got 5.2 pH at room temperature. That's what I wanted to get "into the record" on this thread.

By acid malts, I think you're implying roasted malts.

I'm sure that's what you meant; just don't want anyone to think you actually meant acidulated--cuz that would be bad :cross:

 

[ajdelange]

Yes, good point. I edited the post to be clear on this.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

AJ,
In another thread you wrote:

It is generally thought that the pH going into the kettle should be around 5.2.

I'm still not getting that low, probably because I'm overly-cautious of using too much acid malt or lactic acid and getting some sourness. But I've only had my meter for a few brews. Still tweeking but skeered to go over 3%.

I noticed a comment in Kaiser's How pH Affects Brewing article:

A mash pH above 5.4 should be used for decoction mashes and/or enzymatic weak mashes (i.e. large amounts of Munich malt or adjuncts)

It so happens I'm making Vienna lager this weekend using ~88% Vienna malt but only a thin mash-out decoction; infusions otherwise. Is 5.2 too low? I make a fair amount of malty German lagers so I want to get it right.

Also, is it correct that certain base malts just yield high-ish mash pHs? I'm going through a sack of Canadian Superior Pale Ale malt and the malt analysis sheet shows values for the entire season (my lot is end-of-season). It appears the mash pH steadily climbed during the season and if I'm reading it correctly my lot had a mash pH (congress?) of 5.9. Struggling to get a mash pH below 5.5 with it (but it's still early).

 

[ajdelange]

AJ,
In another thread you wrote: "It is generally thought that the pH going into the kettle should be around 5.2."

I'm still not getting that low, probably because I'm overly-cautious of using too much acid malt or lactic acid and getting some sourness. But I've only had my meter for a few brews. Still tweeking but skeered to go over 3%.

There is definitely some latitude here. I often have pH appreciably higher than that going into the kettle and never take action. I have noticed that when using sauermalz with soft water the pH tends to creep up during decoction mashing when relying on salts for pH control it tends to decrease somewhat with each decoction. This is probably because of the formation of calcium carbonate, phosphate and protein complexes.

I noticed a comment in Kaiser's How pH Affects Brewing article: "A mash pH above 5.4 should be used for decoction mashes and/or enzymatic weak mashes (i.e. large amounts of Munich malt or adjuncts)"

It so happens I'm making Vienna lager this weekend using ~88% Vienna malt but only a thin mash-out decoction; infusions otherwise. Is 5.2 too low? I make a fair amount of malty German lagers so I want to get it right.

Kunze says that mash pH should be 5.4 - 5.6 and wort pH 5.1-5.2 but as noted I think there is some latitude here. I think you would probably be OK with a mash pH of 5.2 but 5.5 has worked well for me and does not require (with DI water) more than 3% sauermalz. With that amount of sauermalz I have observed dough-in pH as low as 5.1 but after a few minutes it climbs eventually settling at 5.4 - 5.5 and this is what I usually begin the boil at. Kunze would advise adding sauergut to get the pH down to 5.1 - 5.2 and that might well improve the beer and I'd encourage experimentation with this but I'm sure you will find such an improvement in your lagers just by controlling to around 5.4 that you will wonder if "better is the enemy of good enough".

Also, is it correct that certain base malts just yield high-ish mash pHs? I'm going through a sack of Canadian Superior Pale Ale malt and the malt analysis sheet shows values for the entire season (my lot is end-of-season). It appears the mash pH steadily climbed during the season and if I'm reading it correctly my lot had a mash pH (congress?) of 5.9. Struggling to get a mash pH below 5.5 with it (but it's still early).

Yes, malts vary a great deal in the acidity they contribute. Most seem to have a DI (Congress) mash pH of 5.75 - 5.8 but 5.9 certainly is possible.

 

[xyz]

......I'm happy to report that testing my pH 10 minutes into the mash.... Exactly 5.2. Booya! Beer time!
:cheers:

Tested with a meter at about 75*. I tested it again 30 min later at about 70* and got the same result.

I know I'm jumping in here at the end of the thread. I struggle a lot when people start talking mash pH whether it is at room temperature or mash temperature. SC_Ryan if you measure 5.2 at room temperature does this not relate to a mash pH (less 0.3) 4.9 at mash temperature which is a bit too low?

I have used a similar process using DI water and only added the salts for the mash. Generally I get a mash pH of 5.4-5.7 using a calibrated meter at room temperature and have thought this OK as the mash pH at mash temperature was 0.3 lower. Should I be aiming for lower pH by adding 2-3% acid malt?

 

[ajdelange]

There is no question that mash pH will be lower at higher temperature. I have often thought that an 0.3 shift between room and mash temps was a bit of a stretch but I haven't the heart to shorten the life of an electrode appreciably to test this out but keep considering doing it in the name of better beer.

If you are hitting 5.4 - 5.7 I wouldn't worry. 5.2 would make me a little uncomfortable and even I might be tempted to add a little lime to a mash that came in that low. I would not probably do that the first time but probably would try raising the mash pH to 5.4 the second time to see which gave the better beer. The subject of this thread is a Primer which is supposed to get guys started out with something simple but just as I have advocated tweaking sulfate and choride for best beer I advocate tweaking pH.

So yes, I would advocate adding sauermalz to a mash that came in at 5.7 the next time you brewed it. At 5.4 I probably wouldn't but if you wanted to try it and see what you got that would definitely be in the spirit of things. There is lots of controversy as to what the proper pH range should be. My gut tells me it is 5.4 - 5.5 but there are lots of other ranges published.

 

[Hermit]

There is no question that mash pH will be lower at higher temperature. I have often thought that an 0.3 shift between room and mash temps was a bit of a stretch but I haven't the heart to shorten the life of an electrode appreciably to test this out but keep considering doing it in the name of better beer.

I had access to an expensive text that quoted just this figure. I remembered it when I saw it because it was the same shift listed as the PH strips are said to have and I wondered at the time if people were using the PH strips 'at temperature' and comparing that to a cooled wort and getting a difference. Even though it was an expensive and authoritative text I knew of some places where it flat out was wrong from personal experience and had read contradictory information on some of the other things it said. I wasted too much time in my youth doing things 'the right way' because I ceded my own judgement ot some authority.

 

[xyz]

AJ thanks for the prompt response thanks for clarification. I have read on Kai's website that he has done some measurements between mash pH and room temp pH of the mash with a quality meter and he doesn't get the 0.3 difference. I would need to look up his site to quote his exact difference.

The pH of 5.7 was for a (50%) wheat beer which I have since found out that wheat does provide some "alkalinity" in the mash but I need to research this further. So will add sauermalz to these in the future. Most batches are in the order of 5.4-5.5. I generally brew beers that are low ABV by US standards (4,5%-6%) and use DI for the mash + salts for SRM< 10 and use tap water for SRM > 10 (approx. Ca 36 ppm CO3 68ppm). I agree with you AJ, look at pH first before going overboard on the salts.

 

[ajdelange]

The 0.3 number is found in lots of texts. DeClerck has some data for soft and medium hard water mashes. This data suggests that the slope is about 0.0075 pH/°C so that if you call room temperature 20 °C and make your first rest a protein rest at 50 °C mash pH at that temperature would be expected to be 0.225 lower than at room temperature. If you go straight to a saccharification rest at 65 °C the drop would be 0.34 (according to these data).

I too have found that wheat seems to result in a slightly higher pH than other malts. I think it must be because it is lightly kilned so my wheatbeer gets sauermalz.

 

[p-nut]

Can someone please explain why my stouts and porters come out great and my pale ales come out not so good. I have a pale on tap now that I guess you would call grassy. I have been using the 1 gram per gallon of CaCl2 for mash and sparge (I heat them both together at the begining). I use the pH test strips and most of the beers seem to be close to 5.1 - 5.2. I have read where these are consistently low by 0.3. Other than the stouts and porters, the only other beer that I was really pleased with was a beer made with 100% 20L Munich. I had this discussion with a friend tonight and we both came to the conclusion that it had to be mash pH. It seems as though I am not getting the pH low enough for the APA/IPA. I have been mashing my stouts and porters at 2qts/lb and I did the Munich beer at 1qt/lb. My water is very soft so I am at a loss.

pH 7.8
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est 55
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.09
Cations / Anions, me/L 0.7 / 0.8
ppm
Sodium, Na 14
Potassium, K < 1
Calcium, Ca 1
Magnesium, Mg < 1
Total Hardness, CaCO3 3
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 1
Chloride, Cl 4
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 37
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 30

 

[ajdelange]

...I had this discussion with a friend tonight and we both came to the conclusion that it had to be mash pH...

It doesn't have to be mash pH but it's a pretty good guess that it is. Your water is so soft that there is nothing in appreciable quantity (calcium or magnesium) to pull mash pH down so that a base malt mash will have pH close to the distilled water mash pH for the grain being used which is probably going to be 5.75 to 5.8. The most noticeable symptom of high mash pH is beers which are just what you describe - OK but not so great. You need to add acid to get mash pH down. In a dark beer this acid is supplied by dark malt. In a light beer it must be supplied some other way. The easiest is to add some acidulated malt (sauermalz). Two - 3% of the grist should do it. See the Primer at the top of this thread.

 

[p-nut]

My last recipe was
8.50 # 2-Row
0.25 # Crystal 10L
0.50 # CaraVienne

I mashed with 1.3 qts/lb and my calcium was 73 ppm and my chloride was 131 ppm. Every other mineral/salt was 3 or less ppm. Instead of the saurmalz I used 2 ml of 88% lactic acid. This beer was closer to being good. It had better aroma, but the flavor was not that great. I have also noticed that it is taking a long time for my APA/IPA to clear.

 

[bgough]

171 ppm of chloride and less than 3ppm of sulfate is not going to make a very good apa or ipa. IMO in those beers you need higher sulfate ratio