I think it was from the brew strong podcasts, Palmer does not advocate any salts in the sparge water. He makes an addition to the mash based on volume of water, and he makes another addition to the brew kettle to cover the rest of the water volume, but skips any additions to the sparge. He believes an addition to the sparge is not necessay unless something is way off in your water to throw PH way out. I think he said even with distilled or RO water he would not make a further addition to the sparge. It is likely because the sparge is primarily a rinse, and the conversion process is pretty much complete.
Water chemistry noob
- Thread starter Yooper
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OP
OP
Oh, good points! My water is highly alkaline, and even with 50% RO, it's still alkaline but I guess it makes sense to add the additions to the brewkettle, and not the sparge water.
When deciding my additions, then- I add the salts to the mash water based on volume of the mash water I'm assuming. Then add the salts to the brewkettle, in the amount I'm "missing" in the sparge? Am I reading you right?
brybarrett
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Yooper,
I too am trying to figure out when to add salts to the mash and then afterward. I guess you determine the amounts of salts for your strike water. Then, what ever your second runnings produce, add salts per that volume. If that what your thinking?
I too am trying to figure out when to add salts to the mash and then afterward. I guess you determine the amounts of salts for your strike water. Then, what ever your second runnings produce, add salts per that volume. If that what your thinking?
The way I do the math is build my mash additions. Let's say I mash with 3 gallons, then if I boil with 7 gallons, I basically build a salt profile for 4 gallons to put in the kettle. The part that this doesn't take into consideration is all the water that is held up in the grains from your initial mash but I am not looking for perfection, just in the ballpark.
OP
OP
Yep, that sounds like what I'm understanding. I mash in tomorrow (if I brew tomorrow- today was put on hold due to my hangover) with 16 quarts and so use the salts based on that addition. Then, I'll be boiling with 6 gallons. So, I add the salts based on that additional volume (sparging with 4.26 gallons) to the brewkettle.
I'm still way over my head with Palmer's nomographs, but it's clearing up slightly for me.
SpanishCastleAle
Well-Known Member
Did you try printing out one of those nomographs and plotting your water on it...then looking to see how additional hardness (mostly calcium but also Mg to a much lesser degree) or additional alkalinity affects the residual alkalinity? IMO, doing so sort of illustrates the 'see-saw' Kaiser was talking about.
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-TH-
Well-Known Member
I believe I heard that as well, but maybe he was assuming the sulfate is already at least 50ppm, since according to his book he gives that number as a minimum (or higher for bitter beers). In Yooper's case (and coincidentally my own), even though the ratio might be balanced, the sulfate is low (below 50). Would it then be worth it to up the sulphate and chloride evenly?
from "How to Brew":
Sulfate (SO4-2)
Molecular Weight = 96.0
Equivalent Weight = 48.0
Brewing Range = 50-150 ppm for normally bitter beers, 150-350 ppm for very bitter beers
The sulfate ion also combines with Ca and Mg to contribute to permanent hardness. It accentuates hop bitterness, making the bitterness seem drier, more crisp. At concentrations over 400 ppm however, the resulting bitterness can become astringent and unpleasant, and at concentrations over 750 ppm, it can cause diarrhea. Sulfate is only weakly alkaline and does not contribute to the overall alkalinity of water.
The remainder of the sparge is just for rinsing, but that water also needs to be amended for the proper balance in the boil for maltiness/bitterness.
The common wisdom is to just add the minerals required to the boil, as the mash reaction has already occurred, and the sparge is simply a mechanical rinsing of the grains.
The interactive Nomograph from Brisbane Brewers in the links is way better at realtime see-sawing, using sliding bars to increase or decrease the mineral levels, and where that change affects things as what is changed when the addition is made-a great learning tool to see what each mineral does directly, visually on a nomograph.
http://nomograph.babbrewers.com/
Palmer's version is ho-hum.
OP
OP
No, I've been using the one in the back of his book. Do you have a link to a printable one? It would make it much easier!
SpanishCastleAle
Well-Known Member
It's here...at the bottom of the page, Figure 81. Just click on it and it pulls up a .pdf file for it.
OP
OP
Thanks! I was looking again at the nomograph, and according to that I'd have to add back about 250ppm of calcium to make a light beer. That seems like an awful lot!
SpanishCastleAle
Well-Known Member
One of the first things I noticed was that for light beers I really need to cut the alkalinity with distilled/RO water first, then add hardness. Reducing the alkalinity moves the fulcrum of the 'see-saw' to the left and makes the hardness additions much more effective. But as I mentioned before...I often have to add a little bit of Epsom to get some Mg back but you probably won't need to. The Mg of my source water is only 6 ppm but you're starting with 26 ppm. However my Calcium is 58 ppm...about the same as yours. My Bicarbonate is 140 so it's less alkaline than your water (this is bottled Spring Water btw...my tap water is hard, sulphury and just plain bad).
Luckily your Chloride and Sulphate are not high...so you'll be able to use Gypsum and/or CaCl (or both) to increase your hardness without the Chloride or Sulphate getting way high. I almost always end up using both Gypsum and CaCl for increasing hardness...so the Chloride:Sulphate ratio stays reasonably balanced.
Luckily your Chloride and Sulphate are not high...so you'll be able to use Gypsum and/or CaCl (or both) to increase your hardness without the Chloride or Sulphate getting way high. I almost always end up using both Gypsum and CaCl for increasing hardness...so the Chloride:Sulphate ratio stays reasonably balanced.
OP
OP
I am cutting my tap water with 50% RO water, but the alkalinity is still high.
Is there a "danger" area where I'm adding too much CaSO4 and CaCl2? I guess that's what I'm asking- how much is "too much" before flavor gets impacted?
Is there a "danger" area where I'm adding too much CaSO4 and CaCl2? I guess that's what I'm asking- how much is "too much" before flavor gets impacted?
boredatwork
Well-Known Member
After reading this terrifically long thread I have a couple points.
My first point is that pH is not the only part of water chemistry that effects beer flavor. This is really important, because it seems like most of the time people are thinking just about mash pH. It was mentioned already but I want to mention it again. The grain, and intended color of the resulting beer, is tied to the mash pH. But flavor is affected by several minerals, most importantly Sulphate, Chloride, and Sodium.
As for target profiles while some beer styles have prototypical target profiles, I personally just use the "Brewing Range" description of each mineral in How to Brew to come up with target ranges for each mineral based on the flavor I want out of the beer I am brewing. You don't even have to understand anything about the science behind it to just copy down the range based on the flavor you want. The point is to think about the resulting flavor you want.
Now, having said that, I find the Brewing Water Chemistry Calculator | Brewer's Friend most helpful because it not only addresses pH and residual alkalinity but also target flavor, target color, and it also provides visual indications of when you are in range with your target profile as well as providing visual indication when you have added too much of any particular mineral. It also lets you specify a dilution percentage.
My last point is regarding the additions schedule. I think the best advice I have come across is to do your additions in two steps. First, come up with the correct amount of additions for you mash volume. Then come up with the correct amount of additions for your sparge volume. Add the mash additions to the MLT (not the strike water kettle) and add your sparge additions to the wort in the boil kettle (it is not necessary to add it to the sparge water). If you add the additions to the strike water kettle instead of the MLT, the temperatures are high enough to cause the additions to precipitate - defeating the whole point of adding them in - I found that out the hard way. It is true that the pH during the sparge is not that important, but remember, additions are not just about pH but also about flavor. So you want to make sure you add the correct amount to get the mash pH correct, but also make sure you add enough full boil volume to address flavor. This is the method I have found the most success with.
My first point is that pH is not the only part of water chemistry that effects beer flavor. This is really important, because it seems like most of the time people are thinking just about mash pH. It was mentioned already but I want to mention it again. The grain, and intended color of the resulting beer, is tied to the mash pH. But flavor is affected by several minerals, most importantly Sulphate, Chloride, and Sodium.
As for target profiles while some beer styles have prototypical target profiles, I personally just use the "Brewing Range" description of each mineral in How to Brew to come up with target ranges for each mineral based on the flavor I want out of the beer I am brewing. You don't even have to understand anything about the science behind it to just copy down the range based on the flavor you want. The point is to think about the resulting flavor you want.
Now, having said that, I find the Brewing Water Chemistry Calculator | Brewer's Friend most helpful because it not only addresses pH and residual alkalinity but also target flavor, target color, and it also provides visual indications of when you are in range with your target profile as well as providing visual indication when you have added too much of any particular mineral. It also lets you specify a dilution percentage.
My last point is regarding the additions schedule. I think the best advice I have come across is to do your additions in two steps. First, come up with the correct amount of additions for you mash volume. Then come up with the correct amount of additions for your sparge volume. Add the mash additions to the MLT (not the strike water kettle) and add your sparge additions to the wort in the boil kettle (it is not necessary to add it to the sparge water). If you add the additions to the strike water kettle instead of the MLT, the temperatures are high enough to cause the additions to precipitate - defeating the whole point of adding them in - I found that out the hard way. It is true that the pH during the sparge is not that important, but remember, additions are not just about pH but also about flavor. So you want to make sure you add the correct amount to get the mash pH correct, but also make sure you add enough full boil volume to address flavor. This is the method I have found the most success with.
Yes that is correct. I was just pulling those numbers out of the air as an example. In order to support a bitter beer with a strong hop profile you would want to keep your sulphates elevated above the 50ppm level. In this case to maintain your target ratio you would raise the chloride accordingly.
Nice points Bored. I have seen that calculator before and played with it just a bit. It does have some nice features not found in some others.
Yooper. You should check that caculator out. I don't know how accurate it is but it converts grams to tsp and the value is different for different salts so I assume it is compensating for the density of each salt.
-TH-
Well-Known Member
Here's a spreadsheet I came up with based on palmers but set up a little more like brewer's friend. Its more focused on style/color than matching water profiles to specific regions. It also calculates amounts of salts to add to the boil.
EZ_water_adjustment.xls
EZ_water_adjustment.xls
SpanishCastleAle
Well-Known Member
I have grams-per-teaspoon numbers for the main salts at home. I'll verify tonight but just going from memory:
CaCl is 3.4 gm/tsp
Gypsum is 4 gm/tsp
Epsom is 4.5 gm/tsp
Those are the ones I use most so I only remember those.
CaCl is 3.4 gm/tsp
Gypsum is 4 gm/tsp
Epsom is 4.5 gm/tsp
Those are the ones I use most so I only remember those.
