water adjustment

[slugsly]

I want to start with a base of distilled or ro water.

I've been reading a bit on water adjustment but the one thing that is eluding me is do I want to add salts based on my final water volume or my starting water volume? I do brew in a bag and will start with between 9-10 gallons for a 5.5g batch. I would think I'm more concerned about ending concentration of the salts I add?

 

[MrTux]

if your using distiller water, it should be absolute zero. Why would you want to change that? Watching this thread to further my education.

 

[Braufessor]

I do not do BIAB...... However, I believe regardless of BIAB or typical mash, your #1 concern is Mash pH. So, it is my thinking that you would want to add your salts based on the total amt. of water in your mash, in conjunction with your grains to get the right mash pH. Secondarily, you are considering the impact of these additions on overall flavor profile of your finished beer.

 

[Singletrack]

You may start with 9-10 gal, but a lot of the loss is grain absorption, and you can assume the grain is absorbing the salts too. Your boil-off losses are probably 1-2 gallons, and this does concentrate the salts. Are you adding the salts for mashing purposes or final wort/beer? Probably both. I use RO blended with tap water and do my calculations based on starting water concentrations. I am most interested in mash pH, and concentration of salts thereafter was easily ignored -- at least until I read your post. So thanks a lot!

 

[mabrungard]

Chasing the final concentrations is a fool's errand. It's best to standardize on the starting concentrations and make your assessments on if you want to increase or decrease any ion concentrations based on the finished beer flavor. Add minerals based on your actual brewing water quantity.

With regard to why you would want to add ions to distilled water, many beers made with distilled or RO water tend to be bland and adding appropriate ionic levels to the brewing water can add desirable flavor. Likewise if overdone, excessive ion concentrations can ruin a beer and potentially contribute to 'alka seltzer' flavor in the beer.

 

[Singletrack]

Chasing the final concentrations is a fool's errand. It's best to standardize on the starting concentrations and make your assessments on if you want to increase or decrease any ion concentrations based on the finished beer flavor. Add minerals based on your actual brewing water quantity.

With regard to why you would want to add ions to distilled water, many beers made with distilled or RO water tend to be bland and adding appropriate ionic levels to the brewing water can add desirable flavor. Likewise if overdone, excessive ion concentrations can ruin a beer and potentially contribute to 'alka seltzer' flavor in the beer.

"Fool's errand." This is a dramatic assertion, backed by no reasoning. Help us understand. What if I'm making a wee heavy that I want to boil for 3 hours? Do I determine my starting ion concentrations using my experience "based on the finished beer flavor" of a beer with a 60 min boil? And why NOT base mineral additions on final concentrations (after making sure they provide for appropriate mashing conditions, of course)?

 

[MrTux]

Started brewing with the idea that the more "purer" the water the better tasting and less bs you have to worry about "taste" I worked for AB, albeit a mechanical roll, they were concerned with pure water. What is wrong with distilled and what should we look for?

 

[Braufessor]

There is nothing "wrong" with distilled or RO water. In fact, it is a great place to start. For some styles, like light lagers, you may not want to add anything to it at all. The reason it is great, first and foremost, is that there is no alkalinity in it to drive your Mash pH to high (which can make bad beer).

That said, if you are brewing a dark beer with a lot of roast grains, the acidity of the grains will drive your pH too low....... and now it is no longer "great." If you are brewing an IPA that you want to showcase hops in..... you will be lacking the sulfate levels that will really accentuate those hops and your beer will be dull, where it should be bright.

In general, you want to add as few things as you possibly can to your water ........ however, you need to make sure your pH into the 5.2-5.6 range depending on style. You also need to have the chloride and sulfate ions (along with Ca and Mg and Na) that will then highlight the flavors of the style you are shooting for.

There is no "one" water profile. It depends on the style and the starting water and the grains you are using.

You need to use a spreadsheet like B'run water to really know what you are dealing with. The Water Chemistry Primer Sticky in the Brewing science subforum is a general way to get yourself in the "ballpark" without a calculator.

 

[MrTux]

That cleared it up for me.

 

[Braufessor]

I think (although I cannot state for sure) what Martin is getting at is something most of us are guilty of when we start adjusting our water. We see a "profile" and focus on the flavor ions in the finished beer like sulfate and chloride. We start with water that is maybe ok......but as we add our calcium/sulfate/chloride to reach our supposed "desired" profile, we ended up lowering the pH of the mash...... so now, we start adding back stuff like chalk and lime to try to fix the pH we screwed up by adding too much of our first additions..... then we see that something else is out of balance and add more to fix that..... and in the end, we chase ourselves around in a circle and never get to where we should have been in the first place.

Here is an example of a strategy I use for my IPA's:

*90% RO water/10% filtered tap water (this gives me just a touch of bicarbonate ....40ppm or so..... that helps get me to mash pH of 5.4

*I add 1.3 grams gypsum per gallon to get me to 190 ppm sulfate and maybe enough CaCl to get to around 40 on chloride.

*I actually want to be up around 250 or so on the sulfate level..... but if I do that in the mash, my pH will drop to 5.2-5.3 which is lower than I want. I don't want to add chalk/lime or more bicarbonate in my tap water to try to prop that back up. Sooooo......

*I throw 2 grams of gypsum directly in the boil kettle.

*This process gives me a mash pH that I am shooting for first. I do it with minimal additions. And, finally, I bump the sulfate levels to where I want them for this beer in the boil, rather than in the mash which effects pH.



When I brew a Bo pils though, for example, I use 100% RO water and .1-.2 grams of CaCl per gallon and that is it.

As I mentioned, the key is to know the mineral content of the water you are dealing with and then have a tool like Brun Water to pinpoint the effects of any additions you are making in conjunction with the grains you are using.

 

[Singletrack]

I think (although I cannot state for sure) what Martin is getting at is something most of us are guilty of when we start adjusting our water. We see a "profile" and focus on the flavor ions in the finished beer like sulfate and chloride. We start with water that is maybe ok......but as we add our calcium/sulfate/chloride to reach our supposed "desired" profile, we ended up lowering the pH of the mash...... so now, we start adding back stuff like chalk and lime to try to fix the pH we screwed up by adding too much of our first additions..... then we see that something else is out of balance and add more to fix that..... and in the end, we chase ourselves around in a circle and never get to where we should have been in the first place.

Here is an example of a strategy I use for my IPA's:

*90% RO water/10% filtered tap water (this gives me just a touch of bicarbonate ....40ppm or so..... that helps get me to mash pH of 5.4

*I add 1.3 grams gypsum per gallon to get me to 190 ppm sulfate and maybe enough CaCl to get to around 40 on chloride.

*I actually want to be up around 250 or so on the sulfate level..... but if I do that in the mash, my pH will drop to 5.2-5.3 which is lower than I want. I don't want to add chalk/lime or more bicarbonate in my tap water to try to prop that back up. Sooooo......

*I throw 2 grams of gypsum directly in the boil kettle.

*This process gives me a mash pH that I am shooting for first. I do it with minimal additions. And, finally, I bump the sulfate levels to where I want them for this beer in the boil, rather than in the mash which effects pH.



When I brew a Bo pils though, for example, I use 100% RO water and .1-.2 grams of CaCl per gallon and that is it.

As I mentioned, the key is to know the mineral content of the water you are dealing with and then have a tool like Brun Water to pinpoint the effects of any additions you are making in conjunction with the grains you are using.

This message brought to you by Brun Water?

Martin is a big boy who could speak for himself, but since we are speaking for him during his silence...

Martin could be saying:
1. Brun Water doesn't provide end-of-boil concentrations, so doing so must be a fool's errand.
2. I don't like where this thread may be headed, so I will let it die a quick and painful death.
3. I'm really busy doing real work, and I just don't have time to respond to this right now. (Which is completely understandable.)

Regardless, focusing on a profile doesn't seem to have much to do with this thread. Suggest we let Martin speak for Martin...or not speak, which speaks volumes?

 

[SEndorf]

Wow... that's just.... wow.

 

[mabrungard]

Martin could be saying:
1. Brun Water doesn't provide end-of-boil concentrations, so doing so must be a fool's errand.

Hmm? That is the point. While we certainly could calculate what that final concentration of the starting water's ion concentrations should be, we have to recognize that there are processes such as precipitation, complexing, and evaporation that contribute to a final concentration. But the most important factor is that the addition of malt to the brewing water adds a bunch of ionic content to wort. For most ions, the malt supplies most of the ionic content, not the water. So it is a little silly to chase the ionic concentration of the starting water due to evaporation when it is not necessarily the primary contributor.

 

[Singletrack]

Martin, Perhaps I lack the capacity to fully understand your reply, but you, sir, are a scholar and a gentleman. Cheers!