Was ancient wine made as a concentrate?

[Widukind]

I have read, in some places, that wine in antiquity was possibly made as a concentrate. To be clear, for example, that the Greeks would make their wine as such.

I’m sure that at least some of you know about the Greco-Roman habit of mixing water with wine. The ratios depending upon the intended outcome of a social occasion, particularly when it came to a Greek symposium. Apparently people did get drunk at these events, even compared to the non-watered down wine we have today. No contract in ancient Makedon could be agreed upon without everyone being hammered.

Well, I would like to take a stab at trying to recreate antiquated wine in a form similar to this (if it was ever made that way). Whether it be Armenian, Roman, Hellenistic, or whatever. I have done experiments with making Sumerian ale and medieval-style brews, as some of you may know, but I have always wanted to make wine. Luckily, I live in a region that is known for its 200+ wineries, so grapes of different kinds are not difficult to access.

My question is this: what can the experienced vintners in this forum, as far as all techniques combined go, suggest one do in recreating an ancient wine? I understand that there were many different varieties of wine between the Bronze Age and the early Medieval period, but I really don’t know where to look for a simple reliable starting recipe. I am also willing to use the simplist of methods for fermenting the wine, as I do have the means to make clay pots and amphorae.


I look to you knowledgeable people for your wisdom.


PS: I am most definitely NOT willing to add lead into the wine.




*Edited for corrections.

 

[Miraculix]

The real deal old-school/Roman/Greek/whatever wine recipe goes as follows:

Crush grapes, collect the juice, wait.

There is plenty of wild yeast on the grapes that will do the job for you. Maybe you wanna go a little bit more the modern route and airlock it after fermentation has noticeably started to prevent it from going sour.

 

[jgmillr1]

Paul Lukacs has an informative book that discusses ancient wine style and practices. His descriptions make out that the wine was often oxidized, vinegary and the locals would add herbs, sap, you-name-it to the brew to make it drinkable. Cheers!

 

[bernardsmith]

I am no expert in classical history but I would think there is a difference between treating wine as a concentrate and diluting wine with water. I believe Talmudic literature makes references to the dilution of older wines (presumably those wines would have higher alcohol content?), whereas younger wines might have the alcohol content more like Kumis or Kvass..

 

[jgmillr1]

The Lukacs book said that some of the most prized ancient wine was made using raisin additions. His hypothesis was that the greater sugar levels produced made for a more alcoholic (hence stable) wine, as well as possibly leaving the brew slightly sweet.

 

[Widukind]

Thanks for your insight, guys. It’s an intriguing topic.

I think it might be worthwhile ordering that book, by the way. For curiosity’s sake, if nothing else.

 

[bernardsmith]

I am wondering how Lukacs knows that the Greeks used raisins. Of course there may be references to this in the literature but in the pps that Amazon allows you to read there are no footnotes or explicit references to any sources.

 

[gunhaus]

I have read the notion before that the ancients just stomped their grapes to juice and waited patiently for the gods to turn it to vinegary, inconsistent, hit or miss wine. I find this highly unlikely and a simple offshoot of our modern tendency to view our fore-bearers as somehow infantile, juvenile, unsophisticated morons because they lacked cell phones and I-pads. I believe that the ancient Greeks, a culture of sophisticated maths, sciences, history, literature, art and architecture - a culture highly dependent on wine and other elixirs not only as a vital stable food stuff, but as a major economic component, would have taken such a random approach. I personally believe that while they may not have known WHAT yeast was - they certainly knew what yeast was . . . I also would bet that they had fairly sophisticated, and complex vessels and techniques for fermenting in a very controlled manner and in effort to get many varieties and styles and flavors.

In the interest of fairness however - I welcome factual, empirical, documented evidence to the contrary!!!

 

[bernardsmith]

Your point , gunhaus, about treating people from other times and places very seriously is well taken but I am not sure that I would then want to assume that their ways of knowing and their practices were in fact analogs of our own. There is one culture (I am sorry, I do not recall which one - but it is talked about by Buhner) that brought new fermenting vessels to older ones so that the older ones would teach the newer ones how to ferment. After a few weeks or months in the presence of these older vessels and equipment the new pots would be able to ferment almost as well as the older ones.
In some cultures wine was viewed as a gift from the gods (literally) so only the select few were entrusted with making it and drinking it was not something mundane but was always part of important ceremonies and rituals that marked the community and its members, sometimes even giving those who imbibed access to those gods.

 

[gunhaus]

First - It is John,

THEN - I do not propose that their actions, behavior, or knowledge were necessarily analogous to ours. Instead i propose they were far more sophisticated and far less slap dash than many often are willing to think. I do not say they did not view the process as delivered by the gods, or that they saw the birth of the process as magical or divine. What I do propose is that a society as sophisticated and scientific as the ancients were known to be: And a society as personally and financially dependent on their wine as the Greeks were thought to be, would trust ALL to fate. While they may certainly have accepted that the fermenting process was gifted to them by Baccus, I firmly believe they were inventive and industrious enough to husband that gift to their total advantage - after all to do less would have been an affront! They MAY have believed that there were vapors from the gods that infected their vessels and made them fertile for the next batch - But it my bet that they KNEW once the vessel WAS so infected that they could manipulate it to THEIR will. . .

 

[gunhaus]

oops! Baccus for the Romans - Crystalinks (Dionysus) For the Greeks! LONG day - But you get the point

 

[madscientist451]

The real deal old-school/Roman/Greek/whatever wine recipe goes as follows:

Crush grapes, collect the juice, wait.

A more authentic process: Make war on your enemies, slay then in battle, enslave their families, have THEM tend the grapes, harvest, crush and store the juice in the ground in clay pots, the wine makes itself.

 

[Widukind]

A more authentic process: Make war on your enemies, slay then in battle, enslave their families, have THEM tend the grapes, harvest, crush and store the juice in the ground in clay pots, the wine makes itself.

What is best in life?

Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their vintners.

 

[Widukind]

I'm glad to see that this discussion is getting traction.

 

[applescrap]

Interesting topic. I cant help but lean towards johns points. Honey, mint, herbs, fresh grapes sound good to me. I also cant help but feel that because women were the brewers on every continent in the world, from the beginning of time to the industrial revolution (too which my wife responded, of course they were) that there is a male ego element.

Maybe to make an ancient wine
Take the freshest grapes you can find
Smash them
Put juice in clay pot (hell yeah make one) and add yeast.
Ferment uncovered and drink. add honey to some batches before and after. Would personally love to see it. I hope yooper chimes in as she is not only an expert wine maker but also iirc has done quite a bit of experimenting with different wines.

https://beerandbrewing.com/how-women-brewsters-saved-the-world/

http://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/m/features/what-does-a-two-thousand-year-old-wine-taste-like

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/11/what-3-700-year-old-wine-tasted-like/281777/

 

[gregbathurst]

As someone else just said, it's just fermented grape juice, the process was exactly the same then as it is now. The only difference is since the invention of glass bottles, before that it was a race to drink the amphora before it went off. When you ferment wine in the same place for a number of years the yeast and bacteria build up so eventually you have a reliable fermentation. Then it is just a matter of excluding air while the wine ages. This was all worked out thousands of years ago. After the discoveries of the Americas new pathogens were introduced which made winemaking much harder and more reliant on sprays and technology. before that you just grew the grapes, harvested when ripe and made the wine. It isn't rocket science. When I make wine and cider I just crush and/or press the fruit, then leave it to ferment, nothing else. The same process has been used for more than 6000 years. We think that technological third millennium man is so advanced, but some things never change.

 

[bernardsmith]

My only comments might be that a) grapes are but one fruit and one source of wine and utterly depend on particular climatic conditions that are not found in every place across the planet and b) the notion of "will" found today in the west, since Nietzche, and the idea of the "individual" as invoked in this country is both very culture-based and very historical. I wonder how much personal "will" would have been viewed as possible, rational, meaningful, and acceptable when we are talking about other cultures and civilizations and times?

 

[applescrap]

My only comments might be that a) grapes are but one fruit and one source of wine and utterly depend on particular climatic conditions that are not found in every place across the planet and b) the notion of "will" found today in the west, since Nietzche, and the idea of the "individual" as invoked in this country is both very culture-based and very historical. I wonder how much personal "will" would have been viewed as possible, rational, meaningful, and acceptable when we are talking about other cultures and civilizations and times?

My first thought was you're drunk, my second thought was no comprendo, and my third thought after rereading this 10 times was perhaps you have a point. Could you please expand on this and tie it to wine making as I am curious what you are getting at.

 

[bernardsmith]

Not drunk but a social scientist. This was less about your wine making than about how people in other times and civilizations understood the meaning of wine and wine making - not necessarily analogous to the narrative we tell. History and other civilizations are more about OUR narratives of them than THEIR narratives about themselves. This was my response to Gunhaus' post. We dismiss or ignore their understandings because we treat our own understandings as far superior. THAT, by the way was NOT what Gunhaus said or implied but his position I think is that their ways of being in the world are very similar to our own.. But they are not. Our narratives about the world are simply our own. And their own narratives are very different. Their ways of knowing are very different, and the ideas and concepts they use to explain and understand their experiences are very different. They are neither "wrong" nor ignorant. They are essentially simply very different from our understandings and they use very different ways of knowing.

The other thing is that wine is made from any fruit with fermentable sugars - not just grapes. Grapes made for wine are particularly high in sugars - about twice or three times the amount of sugar that is found in fruit picked for the table. But you can make delicious wines from apricots to pomegranate, from zucchini (yes!) to mango, from figs to elderberries and from elderflowers to dandelions.

 

[jgmillr1]

I am wondering how Lukacs knows that the Greeks used raisins. Of course there may be references to this in the literature but in the pps that Amazon allows you to read there are no footnotes or explicit references to any sources.

He mentions it on page 8, but there are no supporting references for it. The back of the book contains a long list of sources and biobliographies if one cares to dig deeper.