Very Low Efficiency. Please Help!

[chubby]

I'm 'trying' to learn to do all grain. I started brewing extract about 7 years ago, but I feel like I have no idea what I'm doing based on my results.

I'm trying to make 1 gallon batches so that I can create my own recipes, and not waste a lot of money if the batches don't turn out. I'm using beersmith2 to create my recipes. Great program. Started with 72 percent overall efficiency plugged in. I've made three batches... my efficiency was in the mid 30's to low 40's. I'm at a loss. Beersmith is calculating these beers to be high on the ABV, with my results there's hardly any ABV to be found

I have a 10 gallon water cooler with a large braided hose. With a one gallon batch, the grains don't cover the braided hose. My strike water was 158 and dropped to 138 when I added the grains. About 1.5 qt for 1.5 lb grain. Yes, a little lite, but I added six cups water to bring temp up to 146. Temps were a little low, but this is something I can correct next time. stirred at 15 and 30 mins. Mash for 1 hour. Fly sparged with 158 water per beer smith. Also added 1/8 tsp 5.2 stabilizer at beginning of mash. Took off a total of 1.75 gal at 1.013.

Boiled for 1 hour and ended with just under one gallon. Topped off to one gallon and measured 1.023 OG.

I don't know if I'm missing the mark on mash temperature, or the 10 gallon MT/LT doesn't fit the 1 gallon bill. The grain mill from the HBS looks good from what I've seen online. I have a water softener on city supply. Don't know if that could be a problem. 7.8 PH water is why I used the 5.2 stabilizer after I started mash and measured PH was a little high.

I'm at a loss. I'm reading John Palmers book, six packs from scratch, these forums and google searching. I even made a sweet copper sparge arm/ring to rain in my sparge water. My sparge process was over 30 minutes for 1.75 gallons.

I know someone on here will have some good advice. Thanks in advance.

 

[Kent88]

You can up the temp of your sparge water by up to (but no more than) 10F.

Is this your first/only all-grain batch? Please post your recipe.

 

[TimmyWit]

My guess is that 10 gallon mash tun probably isn't holding temps for 1 gallon batches. Try BIAB or holding mash temps in your oven. The other possibility is a poor crush. But, your mashing technique seems like the best place to start. Have you tried checking your temp at the end of the mash to see where you're at? I bet you are losing a lot of heat.

Edit: One other thing to consider; if you are adding water to bring temperature up, you are throwing off your water/grain ratio which will also have a negative impact on efficiency.

 

[jtratcliff]

Dude, for a 1 gallon batch, you should try stovetop BIAB. I think trying 1 g batches with a 10 g cooler may be stretching it.

Buy a paint strainer bag at your nearest hardware store and do it all I your boil kettle. Get the hang of all grain the easy way before going all out with cooler mash tun, sparge arm, etc.

BIAB is barely more complicated than extract w/steeping grains and is easier than partial mash IMHO.

 

[sky4meplease]

I use my one gallon batches to experiment and I do BIAB for them. The bag I picked up for $5.00 from the LHBS.
Maintaining mash temps in my kettle is a PITA on the stovetop but works better than in the oven.
I have resolved to the fact that it is just less accurate than my five gallon batches.
I have been thinking of trying to mash in a small cooler but don't care to buy one so I have to look through the house to see what I can find.
I haven't really noticed any ill effects to my efficiencies but my attenuation has been somewhat unpredictable I'm guessing due to the fluctuating mash temps.
It did take a few batches to get my boil off rate figured out though your 1.75 gallon pre boil volume seems about right.
Your pre boil gravity seems low. Maybe check your parameters in Beer Smith. My last 1 gallon (SMaSH) had 2.25 pounds of base malt for a 1.060 OG, 1.62 gallons pre boil volume, 1.037 pre boil gravity.

 

[MagicMatt]

One other thing to consider; if you are adding water to bring temperature up, you are throwing off your water/grain ratio which will also have a negative impact on efficiency.

This is inaccurate! All formal testing I've seen (by the likes of Kai Troester and AJ deLange) has proven that this is actually opposite of what happens - that is to say, having a thinner mash actually raises efficiency.

To quote Kai:

"The brewhouse efficiency of the tick[sic] mashes remained almost constant between 58 and 60% over the temperature range of the experiments, but the brewhouse efficiency for the thinner mash showed a strong dependency on the temperature and was always better than the efficiency of the tick[sic] mash. That leads to the conclusion that thinner mashes perform better and allow for better extraction of the grain. Briggs also reports that thinner mashes can convert more starch but that most of the conversion potential is reached at a water to grist ratio of 2.5 l/kg [Briggs, 2004]"

Here's a link to the experiment.. But this is graph tells it all:

 

[MagicMatt]

Please post your recipe.

I agree with Kent88 - Post the recipe of the last batch.

Here are some things that come to mind based on your post though:

- Mash temps way too low. You said you added water to raise the temp and got it to 146.....was this the temp of the additional water or the total volume after adding? Did you monitor the temp throughout the mash (what was it at prior to sparging)? Also, don't stir during the mash with such a small volume! You're dropping the temp every time you do that. Larger mashes are less affected obviously. The temperature issue is most likely the cause of your troubles.

- pH could have been way out of range. You said it was "a little high" - what does that mean exactly? And was the sample at room temp or mash temps? If you provide your grain bill (and helpful would be a water quality report), we can determine the pH of your mash.

- Sparge temp should be 168°F, not 158°F. Also there's no reason for a 1 gallon batch to take 30 minutes to sparge. At that rate, you'd take 3 hours to sparge a 5 gallon brew.

 

[chubby]

Thanks all. I'll try to respond to all.

Here's my Mash Ingredients

10.4 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 43.3 %
8.0 oz Pale Malt (6 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 33.3 %
5.6 oz Corn, Flaked (1.3 SRM) Grain 3 23.3 %

My mash temps were too low, I agree. I brought my mash temp up to the mid 140's. I was targeting higher but didn't want to keep adding water. I think going forward I will heat up the mash tun before hand. I had about a 20 degree temp drop not doing so and it was difficult to bring the temps up.

Basically I ended up mashing with 4 quarts of water for 1.5 lbs. My target is essentially 1.6qts/lb. That's 10 cups. Which also happens to be basically the deadspace in my tun. In reality that kind of prevents me from doing anything else other than fly sparging since the mash water is the same as the deadspace. I have to start sparging to get water to come out basically.

My first attempt at 1 gallon batches was BIAB. Like the comments, I had a heck of a time maintaining temperature on the stove top even with a double boiler. That's why I thought I'd switch to my 10 gallon cooler. The cooler holds temp pretty well. It does drop several degrees after an hour though with the 1 gallon batch. I didn't record that reading, but I'm thinking it dropped half a dozen degrees or so from memory. I use an electronic thermo with a braided wire lead going into the tun under the lid.

With my braid hose filter only being partially submerged in the grain bed, I'm wondering if the sugars are not being washed out of the dead space and most of what is coming out is the lighter water on the top. If so, would a false bottom work better for gallon batches? I didn't take reading on the first runnings. I'm thinking maybe I need to completely drain the cooler on the first runnings and again after lautering?

I took my pool chemical set and tested my softened city water that I use before hand. The PH was around 7.8. Unfortunately the test strips I bought to use for the mash are the wide range ones. With the 5.2 stabilizer added to the mash, I was getting a reading of 6. The strip indicates whole numbers only, so I'm guessing I was somewhere between 5 and 6, closer to 6 than 5. I took the readings using a dropper, but the temps would have been basically mash temps then.

This is my fifth all-grain batch, but only my 3rd 1 gallon batch. I didn't calculate efficiencies on the 5 gallon batches, but when my gravities came in so low on my 1 gallon batches, I had to go digging. Beersmith calculated this last subject batch should have an OG of 1.039 with 72% overall efficiency and mine came out at 1.023, 42.6%.

I just want to be able to make good beer. I kind of suspect the 10 gallon mash tun doesn't fit the 1 gallon bill. Missing the target mash temps didn't help I'm sure. Smack me upside the head if there's something obvious I'm missing. I'll nurse my headache with some fresh homebrew afterwards.:cross:

 

[BadBeagleBrew]

Your cooler is def the problem, if you're adding sparge water just get anything coming out, than guess what that thin layer of sparge water you just added is what's coming out all that sugary goodness is still at the bottom. An easy way to hold temp in a pot doing BIAB is to just bring it to temp add grains make sure temp is stable in oh lets say 152f range take off the stove put it on a towel and wrap the whole thing in a nice thick blanket. Heat up your sparge water and just rinse the bag off or have another pot to dip the grains in after your mash and add that to your main pot and commence your boil. I use a 10 gal cooler for 5 gal batches and feel it's a bit big for that but still manage about 68% efficiency with little temp control. YOUR COOLER IS THE PROBLEM! For that size batch do BIAB in a pot on a stove or get a little tiny beer cooler and do BIAB in that for temp control, you need to get a smaller container to mash in. Good luck with your next brew.

 

[chubby]

I think I will give BIAB another try for my next brew. I've learned plenty of ways to not do 1 gallon all grain. Haha. I'll follow up to hopefully close the loop.

Thanks to all for input. I'll hear any additional input in the meantime too. It seems there are people who successfully use a braid filter in a cooler for 5 gallon batches and larger. I just don't think I have the grain bed and volume of mash water at 1 gallon for my equipment to be efficient.

One question I still have in my head. Would a mash temp of 145 be too low for thorough starch conversion? That's not my target temp, but that's what the mash dropped to after adding the water.

Edit: My mash temperature dropped from 158 to 138. I was able to raise it back up to 146. Curious if this was too low for thorough starch conversion.

 

[emyers]

I agree stovetop biab would be much easier and efficient. One crucial part is getting that mash up to 170f for mash out. And that's mash temp not sparge water temp. If your sparging 145f grain with even 170f water your grain will only see 150s. You want to get the temps up and give the grains a good five minutes to stabilize at 170 allowing all the sugars to dissolve and push out from the grains.

 

[MagicMatt]

Yeah the 10 gallon cooler is not going to work for such a small batch. I use a 10 gallon cooler w/ a false bottom for 5-6 gallon batches and hit over 80% regularly.


Another easy trick to help up the efficiency is to add more grain to the grist. I usually use between 11-12 lbs of grain for an average 5.5 gallon batch. That's basically a 2:1 on grain:batch size. You're using 1.5 lbs grain for 1.5 gallon batch size - that seems really low to me. Did you maybe scale another recipe incorrectly?

 

[sky4meplease]

I would think about getting a thick walled small cooler just big enough to hold the BIAB, grains and strike water.
Over heat your strike water by 10-15 degrees or so and add it to the cooler. Stir and monitor the temp until you hit your target strike and add the bag and grains. This will preheat the cooler so you won't lose the heat while you mash. Put the lid on and mash away. Once your mash is done pour the contents of the cooler into your boil kettle, pull the bag out and place it in a strainer set on top of your boil kettle. Gently pour your sparge water over the bag and start your boil.
I use a 4 gallon pot for this not my 7 gallon pot.
This and check your recipes. A preboil gravity of 1.013 is too low for most styles unless your boiling for two plus hours.

 

[chubby]

MagicMatt my volume after boil was 1 gal. I am using beersmith2 to create the recipe and perform the calculations.

I'm thinking the best approach for a 10 gallon cooler for 1 gallon batches would be to batch sparge and tilt the cooler to drain all the good stuff out of the bottom for both parts. I think the cooler is too wide and therefore the drain is too high to fly sparge. That's my latest untested hypothesis.

I just had an aha moment. I have an induction burner that has temp control setting. I'll see if it goes down low enough.... hmmmm....

 

[BadBeagleBrew]

Your cooler is to big for that small of a batch!

 

[sky4meplease]

I just had an aha moment!

I bet your 10 gallon cooler is too big for 1 gallon batches!?!?

Hmmmm

 

[chubby]

So...I got a 3 gallon igloo cooler, and basically did BIAB using the cooler and my grain bag.

Same recipe as before. 1.5 lbs of grain, 1.5Qts/Lb mash. (2.25Qt total). Had to add probably 2 cups to get temperature to settle in within first 6 minutes.

Mashed it at 148 (want beer to ferment out). Was able to fit my temp probe lead under the lid and monitor during 1 hour mash. Temperature only dropped 2-3 degrees in an hour.

I took the bag out after one hour and dumped the liquid into the brew kettle.

I placed 4.75 Qt 165 degree water in the cooler and dunked the grains for a good 5 minutes or more.

Using my refractometer I read 1.020 breboil gravity for 7.12 Qts. (Also measured 2.374 Qt first runnings at 1.048.)

Post boil: 1.06 Gal / 1.033 OG.

I did not use the 5.2 stabilizer, but using my PH test strips I was somewhere between 5 and 6 PH.

Plugging my numbers into beersmith, my measured efficiency is 64.8%. Better, but still pretty low... I'm not looking for perfection, but isn't 70% supposed to be easily attainable?

I can't find a city water report online. My whole house is on water softener, except one exterior faucet.

Should I not use water through the softener? I've since read that doing so is a no no. Could that be contributing to my low efficiency? I know I don't have data for this question, but I'm wondering if softened water is for sure a problem with all grain.

 

[peterj]

I'm glad you switched to a 3 gallon cooler. That was the main problem.

As to your water question, I wouldn't use water from a softener. From what I understand it exchanges the calcium and magnesium in the water for other ions like sodium and potassium which in too high a concentration will add off flavors.

Also, it's good that you stopped using the 5.2 stabilizer. It's basically worthless.

And pH strips are also going to be very inaccurate for mash purposes.

I would email the city or send off a sample of your (unsoftened) water to Ward Labs for testing. Or you could just buy RO or distilled water and add salts. That is probably the best and easiest option especially because you're only doing 1 gallon batches.

Water chemistry resources:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460
http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/

 

[LymeKiln]

I've recently (about 1 year) begun all-grain. My first three batches had very low gravities as well. I was mashing in at 158°F and holding temp for an hour. Then sparging with 170°F water. It's taken 3 batches to get everything right, but I've finally gotten my low gravities licked.
I asked my LHBS and he told me to reduce my mash temp to 154°F. Lo and behold I've made two batches following his advice and they've both turned out with excellent results. In fact, this last batch had a SG of 1.060, right on target!
I don't know how to positively impact my efficiency, as that is around 72-75%. But it would seem that your idea of mash temp holds weight based on my own experience. Don't forget to preheat your Mash tun. I put about 2 gal of 190°+ water in mine and let that rest, covered, while I prep my mash liquor. That seems to help quite a bit.

 

[falkaveli]

Boiled for 1 hour and ended with just under one gallon. Topped off to one gallon and measured 1.023 OG.

How are you taking your gravity measurement? What temperature was the wort at?

 

[chubby]

I'm taking the gravity measurements with my refractometer. 3 drops and waiting at least 30 seconds for the temp to settle. I calibrated it within the week with distilled water.

Edit:

Preboil temps of wort, between 145 and 165 degrees, placed 3 drops, wait at least 30 seconds
Postboil temps of wort, 73 degrees, placed 3 drops, wait at least 30 seconds

 

[chubby]

I called the water office. They don't publish a report, but she read me their latest readings. There are 2 plants that I can get water from at any given time. She said I'm probably mostly south plant, but didn't sound certain.

North Plant:
PH: 7.88 avg
Hardness: 151 mg/l
Alkalinity: 341
Chloride: 80
Sodium: 181
Calcium: 143
Magnesium: 8
Bicarbonate: 341


South Plant:
PH: 7.81 avg
Hardness: 137 mg/l
Alkalinity: 103
Chloride: 30
Sodium: --
Calcium: 130
Magnesium: 7
Bicarbonate: 103

 

[BadBeagleBrew]

If you are going to be mashing at 148 (the very low end of mash temps) you should do a 90min mash to ensure full conversion. Try the recipe again, but mash at 152 and maybe check to make sure the grain crush is good, that should bring your points up a little more. I get about a 68% efficiency in my 5.5gal batches but only collect 3 gal of wort and do a concentrated boil than top off with water.

Edit: Also is your thermometer calibrated correctly, if not you may be mashing lower than you think.

 

[Clonefan94]

Are you having the grains crushed for you? My efficiency went from mid to high 60s to 80% by getting my own grain mill and crushing myself.

 

[chubby]

If you are going to be mashing at 148 (the very low end of mash temps) you should do a 90min mash to ensure full conversion. Try the recipe again, but mash at 152 and maybe check to make sure the grain crush is good, that should bring your points up a little more. I get about a 68% efficiency in my 5.5gal batches but only collect 3 gal of wort and do a concentrated boil than top off with water.

Edit: Also is your thermometer calibrated correctly, if not you may be mashing lower than you think.

The 90 minute mash makes sense to me. I'm questioning the softened water still. I could use the unsoftened water from outside and try the 90 minute mash, but then I won't know which variable to attribute any change to. But if that 'fixes' it, I really don't care. haha

 

[chubby]

Are you having the grains crushed for you? My efficiency went from mid to high 60s to 80% by getting my own grain mill and crushing myself.

Yeah I'm having them crushed. They look good to me... most of the grains are in multiple pieces. I'll try to get pic..

Attached. Thoughts?

 

[peterj]

I agree with upping the mash temp or going to 90 minute mashes. I also agree that grain crush is one of the most important factors as far as efficiency goes.

Your "North Plant" water looks pretty terrible for brewing most beers. Sodium, bicarb, and alkalinity are all VERY high. "South Plant" would probably be workable depending on what that Sodium and Sulfate levels are. But since there's no way of knowing what you're getting, I would strongly recommend going with distilled or RO water and adding some salts. Just some calcium chloride and gypsum would be fine. And since you're only doing 1 gallon batches you could just buy the 3 gallon jug with the spigot on it or something. Super cheap and easy.

 

[bernardsmith]

I don't know Beersmith or what that calculator would suggest but I would think that you need to use about 2.25 lbs of grain to obtain a gravity of about 1.60 or thereabouts in a one gallon batch assuming that your preboil (after mashing and sparging) would be about 1.5 gallons. Your total grain bill seems to be about 1.5 lbs... and your pre-boil seems to be about 2 gallons... I guess I don't see this as an "efficiency" issue as much as a too small source of fermentable sugar... but I make wine not beer and my knowledge of brewing might fit on one side of a postage stamp.

 

[BadBeagleBrew]

Looks like your grains could definitely be crushed a little better (my opinion only), I crush mine at my LHBS as well and the crush is much finer than that. Check the mill next time your in, easy way to see if it's set to crush to coarse is with a credit/debit card, if the card goes in easily it's not set fine enough. Again just my opinion others may agree or disagree.

 

[peterj]

Yeah that crush doesn't look too great. It seems like there's a good amount of whole, uncracked grains.

 

[Clonefan94]

I'm with those who would look for a better crush. It's ok to find a few whole kernels here or there, but by your pic, looks like too many to me.

Think about it, even if only 10% are left whole, that's still about 10% of the sugar you can't get at. Yours looks very similar to what I was getting before I got my own grain mill.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[sky4meplease]

With BIAB you can afford a finer crush to help with efficiencies also because you don't have to worry about stuck sparges.
Otherwise I don't think your too far off.
I run the numbers for my set up and get 1.026 preboil and OG of 1.042 using 1.5 pounds of base malt at 75% efficiency.
Keep at it your almost there.

 

[Gerry_P]

I have the 5 gallon cooler/bazooka setup. Be sure to drain your mash slowly...that was the rookie mistake I made. When I fixed it I went from 63% to 73%. (brewhouse.)

Edit: Btw, those grains need a bit more crushin'.

 

[LymeKiln]

Gerry just how slow do you sparge? I've kind of got it timed to about 45 minutes for 5 gallons.

 

[Bobby_M]

First batch primary problem was too big of a cooler for such a small batch. You can't use a tun where infusion volume = dead space. Also, you really shouldn't fly sparge with a braid as they are not compatible.
The batch in the 3 gallon cooler fixed that problem but you are still mashing a grist with unmalted adjucts, under 150F, for only 60 minutes. You either have to go warmer or mash longer ESPECIALLY with that coarse crush. It's not borderline either, that mill needs adjusting.

 

[MagicMatt]

It's not borderline either, that mill needs adjusting.

Hear, hear! After only 2 brews I decided I was not satisfied with my LHBS's consistency of crush, so I bought a Cereal Killer and haven't looked back. I condition my grains (per Kai's website) and it allows for an even finer crush. I've hit near 85% several times.

 

[peterj]

Dude, for a 1 gallon batch, you should try stovetop BIAB. I think trying 1 g batches with a 10 g cooler may be stretching it.

He did.

 

[Gerry_P]

Gerry just how slow do you sparge? I've kind of got it timed to about 45 minutes for 5 gallons.

Hmm...pretty close to that. Kind of a steady trickle, if that makes sense. I'm pretty new to ag so I'm still figuring this stuff out, and I saw a big jump when I slowed things down a bit.

BTW, OP: I hear that putting a sheet of tin foil on top of your wort before you put the lid on the cooler can help keep the temperature up, but I haven't tried it yet. Pre-heating my cooler and sealing the lid with duct tape helped a lot though, plus I wrap mine in towels. I lose 1 or 2 degrees during a 90 minute mash.

 

[peterj]

If you're batch sparging it shouldn't matter how fast you drain the mash tun. You should mix the sparge water in really well and then all of the sugars left in the tun will be evenly distributed and dissolved in the water. So as long as you get all of the wort out, it doesn't matter if it comes out fast or slow. That's one of the big advantages of batch sparging.

Maybe you're talking about fly sparging though, in which case the flow rate does matter.

 

[sboyajian]

Just for piece of mind, consider picking up some iodine so you can check to make sure you mash is complete... but I would agree the grains look like they could be crushed a bit better. It's possible time has allowed the mill to not be as efficient and the LHBS just hasn't noticed. Let them know.