Very high bicarbonate in water, what to do?

[Brewshna]

Hi all, I just got a water analysis from the town council and entered the numbers into my software. It turns out that the HCO3 level is 397ppm. As I understand, that reduces the drop of PH while mashing.
what else I've learner's is that a can
1. Dilute the water with distilled water (but won't that reduce the good stuff like Mg etc. too?)
2. Use acidulated malt, but how much is too much?
3. Use acid like lactic. Again I've read that 10ml for 19l is a lot, but I need a minimum of that to reach 5.4PH in a light beer that's no stout etc.
4. A combination of above.
Anyone got some clever ideas?

Thanks in advance you fantastic people

 

[VikeMan]

1. Dilute the water with distilled water (but won't that reduce the good stuff like Mg etc. too?)

Yes, it dilutes everything. But you can also build other ions back (if/when needed) after diluting.

2. Use acidulated malt, but how much is too much?
3. Use acid like lactic. Again I've read that 10ml for 19l is a lot, but I need a minimum of that to reach 5.4PH in a light beer that's no stout etc.

Using acidulated malt and using lactic acid are sort of the same thing. The extra acidity in acidulated malt is lactic acid. Using lactic acid from a bottle is IMO the better way to go, because it's more precise. If you find you're adding so much lactic acid that you're able to taste lactate in the finished beer, you could use something like phosphoric acid instead.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

19 Liters of your water would require the addition of about 103 mL of 10% Phosphoric Acid whereby to reduce the Alkalinity to about 30 mg/L (ppm). About 31 mL of AMS (CRS) would do likewise.

31 mL of 30% (Wt./Vol.) Phosphoric Acid would also work if you can find it in a food grade. 30% Phosphoric Acid and AMS(CRS) have quite close to the same relative acid strength in the vicinity of pH 5.4 to pH 5.5.

 

[Vale71]

Yeah, water around Munich is really crap for brewing. BTW we were almost neighbours for a year (Germering) but then I had to move.

I'd suggest diluting it heavily with RO water. You'll still have more than 50 ppm of calcium which is good for beer and a lot less magnesium which is bad for beer. You'll still have to acidify because of the high carbonate content but not as heavily. You can also use a combination of acidification and calcium chloride and/or sulfate additions.

 

[Brewshna]

I've got 80% lactic acid from amazon. My next beer will have acidulated malt and lactic acid in it,using brewfather water calculator to calculate the right amount. I only have PH test strips to check after mashing.
Another question, everyone writes about bru n water. I don't like using that excel file but prefer brewfather or brewer's friend calculators. Any opinions on that?

Thanks for the help sofar

 

[Brewshna]

Is RO water and Distilled water the same? Why the water hell is Munich so well known for beer if the waters crap.
I grew up in Germering, what a funny coincidence. Not many home Brewers here, I think.

 

[VikeMan]

Is RO water and Distilled water the same?

It's close. Distilled water has no dissolved solids. Good RO has very little dissolved solids. With good RO, you can get away with using it as if it is distilled.

 

[Brewshna]

is using distilled water an option? wouldn't know if where to get RO water.

 

[Vale71]

Is RO water and Distilled water the same? Why the water hell is Munich so well known for beer if the waters crap.
I grew up in Germering, what a funny coincidence. Not many home Brewers here, I think.

As a matter of fact the Munich Dunkel was the dominant beer style (with the biggest exception being the monastic Hefeweizen tradition) exactly because of the crappy water. Helles became the dominant beer style only after the war as water treatment technology became available that made reducing residual alcalinity to acceptable levels possible. You can rest assured that every single brewery in Munich treats its water.
You could probably get food-grade RO water at aquarium shops but the best alternative is to make your own using a home water treatment system.

 

[VikeMan]

is using distilled water an option?

Yes. I use distilled water 99% of the time. Stock up on CaCl2, CaSO4, baking soda (or slaked lime), non-iodized salt, and lactic acid (or phosphoric acid) to get the pH and ion content where you need it for any given recipe.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

If you first tossed ~2.5 grams each of Gypsum and Calcium Chloride into 22 Liters of your water and then boiled it down to ~20 Liters you would wind up (after settling and decanting) with ~19 Liters of water with about 50-60 ppm Calcium, and ~65 ppm Alkalinity (~80 ppm Bicarbonate). Plus it would retain the added sulfate and chloride.

After that, it would only need about 2.2 mL of your 80% Lactic Acid added, instead of about 11 mL.

 

[Brewshna]

I don't understand why throw the things in and then boil of 2l?why not throw the right amount into 20l?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Calcium must be consumed whereby to boil off (or rather, complex) the Alkalinity. And your water does not initially have sufficient calcium, so that is why more is required to be added. Even with sufficient calcium the boiling method can only get you down to about 65 mg/L Alkalinity (~80 mg/L Bicarbonate).

During boiling the calcium complexes (reacts) with the Bicarb to form calcium carbonate, and most of this drops out as a precipitate.

 

[Vale71]

You might find this resource useful.

https://braumagazin.de/article/von-der-wasseranalyse-zum-brauwasser/

 

[Brewshna]

great thanks. Are you German, your English writing is very good? I'm English but grew up here.

 

[Vale71]

I'm Italian. German is only my third language. But I did spend a year in Germering...

 

[mabrungard]

Is RO water and Distilled water the same? Why the water hell is Munich so well known for beer if the waters crap.
I grew up in Germering, what a funny coincidence. Not many home Brewers here, I think.

The water is not ideal if you didn’t perform some sort of treatment. Munich brewers found out a long time ago that pre-boiling that water makes for decent brewing water.

 

[z-bob]

I have water similar to yours. I add acid to the mash; usually 85% phosphoric acid, but sometimes lactic acid or acid malt. Then I sparge with maybe 140 degree water (no acid added) so it's not hot enough to extract significant tannin from the husks. I thought by now I would be experimenting with using lime to decarbonate the water, but this is working for me.

When I tried acidifying the mash and the sparge water with lactic acid, that was too much and I could taste it in the beer.

 

[Brewshna]

when you add acid, do you calculate the amount based on the amount of wort going into the fermenter? so acidulate while mashing, amount calculated and sparge with "clean" water?

 

[z-bob]

I add acid to get the mash pH below 5.5; usually 5.4 or 5.35. I don't worry about the pH going into the kettle or the fermenter. I don't know if that really a good practice but it work for me with the very alkaline water I have.

I do brew-in-a-bag, and lately instead of sparging I've started adding what should be sparge water at the end of the mash, stir it up and let it sit for 10 minutes and then drain the bag. The pH probably rises to 5.6 or so; I haven't measured it. It is similar to using the full volume of water for the mash (like Aussies do) except I don't have to acidify the water that's added late, just dechlorinate it.

 

[VikeMan]

I do brew-in-a-bag, and lately instead of sparging I've started adding what should be sparge water at the end of the mash, stir it up and let it sit for 10 minutes and then drain the bag. The pH probably rises to 5.6 or so; I haven't measured it. It is similar to using the full volume of water for the mash (like Aussies do) except I don't have to acidify the water that's added late, just dechlorinate it.

You haven't measured, but have you at least calculated where the pH is predicted to end up? You mentioned that your water is "very alkaline."

 

[Birrofilo]

@Brewshna

Rather than aiming at a certain water quality in itself, I suggest you familiarize yourself with spreadsheets like Bru'n Water or Mash made easy, or the water treatment section of brewing software.

Those programs aim to foresee the mash pH given not just your water but also your grain bill. You should ideally make modification (adding salts, adding acid, or adding RO water) for the mash, not the water.

The software you are using can probably help you to reach that goal. You just insert your water profile "as is". Then you go to your recipe and insert the grain bill you will be using, and the mash water volume. The software should suggest (or should help you find, through trial and error) the water correction for that water-grist combination. That would help you reach a mash pH of 5,2 - 5,6 at ambient temperature.

A simpler approach might work, naturally. Some people disregard water adjustement, some people just apply some "rule of thumb" adjustement. But if you have to go through the hassle of modifying your water, I suggest you do the proper work

 

[Brewshna]

Thanks again everyone. Last brew was an Imperial stout, so thanks to all the dark grain pH should have been okish. Will use all the Infos I got for my next brew. would have to brew the same beer twice, once with and once without any water adjustments to test the difference.

 

[z-bob]

You haven't measured, but have you at least calculated where the pH is predicted to end up? You mentioned that your water is "very alkaline."

I have calculated what the predicted pH is. I think it was about 5.6 but don't remember for sure. This was after the conversion was complete. I can go into the calculator and run it again...

ETA: I just ran the numbers again on a light colored beer I brewed a few months ago. The mash pH was 5.45. If I used the same amount of acid but added all the sparge water at the beginning of the mash the pH rises to 5.58 (which is too high but not terrible) Or I could add another 1.6ml of phosphoric acid to get the pH down to 5.4; that's probably not a bad choice with phosphoric acid. When I use lactic acid I can start tasting it at that level.