Very frustrating 3rd and 4th brews! How to recover?

[Takeshi_pilis]

Hi!

I have done 4 beer brews in total. I do BIAB. Not yet owning a brewing system sadly. My 1st and 2nd brews were perfect and spot on on all the numbers.

I planed for two weeks for a back to back brew day today. Mango smash pale ale and blackbery phily sour. Both of my brews were off and it frustrated and demotivated me alot.

Mango pale ale was golden promise and azaca smash. Expected OG had to be 1.056 I got 1.050. Well ok. I got lunch, drank some coffe and went for second brew.

Blackberry phily sour. All seemed good and then bamm. I was lacking around 3l of worth and OG was 1.060 when it had to be around 1.055. After this I got very frustraded and dumped 3 more liters of bottled spring water in to the fermenter to atleast catch up to volume..

God damn I need a beer after this.. Not even sure where I messed up. But I guess its for me to figure out. Though your guys input would be very helpful.

How do you guys recover from bad brew days? Feeling like a morron now..

 

[sibelman]

You're very ambitious for a new brewer! However, we can't make process suggestions knowing almost nothing of your process. To get help you will need to provide more details.

 

[Takeshi_pilis]

You're very ambitious for a new brewer! However, we can't make process suggestions knowing almost nothing of your process. To get help you will need to provide more details.

Yea, I try push myself as much as I can. My first beer was NEIPA. So yea. (It turned out great by the way, haha).

Ok, lets talk more on current issues.

Pale ale:
30L water
5.5kg golden promise
-
1h mash at 67
10min mashout at 75
30min boil (25g azaca at 30, 25g azaca at flameout, 75g azaca at whirpool)
Chilled to 30 (Im using kveik voss)
First time I managed to get full yeald without a tone of trub
Gravity of.. maybe its off cuz the worth temp was 30?

Sour:
25L water
4.4kg golden promise
450g oat flakes
450g wheat
200g acidulated
100g brown sugar
450g lactose
-
1h mash at 64
10min mash out at 75
15min boil (sugars at 10)
Whirpool 50g of sabro
Chilled to 22
Sh*t load of trub, target of by 3l atleast
Pitchen phily
Went to cry
Went to buy 3l of spring water
Added spring water

Is that enough info? Or I missed something?

 

[sibelman]

Side note: those are short boil times.

 

[Takeshi_pilis]

Side note: those are short boil times.

God damn. Im I chef for my ocupation so Im used if I follow the recipe - everything ends up well.

And I cant say that the recipes are bad. The pale ale is a very reliable source. Sour not so much but I tried using my own brain more. Didint work out so well as I expected.

 

[sibelman]

Expected OG had to be 1.056

Expected because...? Sometimes assumption rolled into beer calculators are inaccurate. One's efficiency depends on one's system.

 

[Bobby_M]

I've been brewing for 20 years and my first Philly sour attempt was a dumper. No solutions, but some thoughts.

Brewing with weird ingredients, fruit, sours, and the like is more challenging. At the very least, it's harder to know when you've done it right.

Gravity targets are established by the recipe author. The amount of grain listed to achieve the gravity is based on an extraction ASSUMPTION (or empirically based on the author's equipment and process). The new brewer of that recipe must assume that they will not get the same extraction efficiency as the recipe author. It's the law. Figure out what your typical efficiency is and scale the recipe. It's complicated, but it's so.

You put a lot of weight on "recipe". In brewing, the recipe is probably 20% of the final product. Process, equipment and ingredients are the rest.

 

[Takeshi_pilis]

Expected because...? Sometimes assumption rolled into beer calculators are inaccurate. One's efficiency depends on one's system.

Because.. a recipe said that? Maybe beer recipes are a bit more flexible than food per say..

Probably ur right.. For example I dont have a system, haha. Just a big ass 50l pot, a grain bag and a thermometer..

 

[DBhomebrew]

Just a big ass 50l pot, a grain bag and a thermometer..

That's a system that can be dialed in as closely as any other. Don't sell yourself short, don't blame the equipment.

 

[Takeshi_pilis]

I've been brewing for 20 years and my first Philly sour attempt was a dumper. No solutions, but some thoughts.

Brewing with weird ingredients, fruit, sours, and the like is more challenging. At the very least, it's harder to know when you've done it right.

Gravity targets are established by the recipe author. The amount of grain listed to achieve the gravity is based on an extraction ASSUMPTION (or empirically based on the author's equipment and process). The new brewer of that recipe must assume that they will not get the same extraction efficiency as the recipe author. It's the law. Figure out what your typical efficiency is and scale the recipe. It's complicated, but it's so.

You put a lot of weight on "recipe". In brewing, the recipe is probably 20% of the final product. Process, equipment and ingredients are the rest.

Oh damn.. I see the tendency of my mistake now I kind of treat the recipe as the main thing..

Like basicly I should use a recipe for grain type and percentage and everything else is just my eficiency? Brewing the same thing with the same ingredients and just try to be more and more eficient?

 

[Takeshi_pilis]

That's a system that can be dialed in as closely as any other. Don't sell yourself short, don't blame the equipment.

Yes Im trying to work on it. And totaly not blaming it. Dont even plant on upgrading. Its simple. Its nice. I like it and it makes some damn good beer.

Edit: well maybe upgrade the thermometer. Mine just dies at 90+C

 

[DBhomebrew]

Some would argue consistently is more important than efficiently.

 

[Takeshi_pilis]

Some would argue consistently is more important than efficiently.

Hmmm, makes a lot of sence. It trying to build a base of recipes styles brews that me and my friends and family love. And then perfect them. Being able to reproduce the same exact brew over and over again.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Or brewing a new recipe. Knowing your system's mash efficiency at any given pre-boil gravity will allow you to brew the beer you intend whether or not you've brewed it before.

Yes, a published recipe's grain bill by weight is irrelevant to you. But by percentage you can produce the same wort at the published gravity at any volume.

 

[Takeshi_pilis]

Or brewing a new recipe. Knowing your system's mash efficiency at any given pre-boil gravity will allow you to brew the beer you intend whether or not you've brewed it before.

Yes, a published recipe's grain bill by weight is irrelevant to you. But by percentage you can produce the same wort at the published gravity at any volume.

Ohhhh.. so thats where another one of my mistakes is.. I should start measuring preboil grav to determine if im off. Some recipes or video guides provide pre boil grav. How should I determine if the grav is eficient without that? Use online cals for my grain bill?

 

[DBhomebrew]

You want to get your head around "gravity points."

Gravity Pts = (specific gravity -1) * volume

For example, you have 22 liters at 1.050

22*50=1100 gravity points

Now you boil off 2 liters, you should get the same number of gravity points. Water has been removed, but no sugars.

Your post-boil gravity should be 1.055.

This becomes a great way to double check your measurements.

As far as efficiency goes, you're really looking at three kinds.

Conversion efficiency is the realized wort gravity vs predicted based on any given grist's theoretical extract potential. There's no reason you can't approach or hit 100%.

Lauter efficiency is how many gravity points make it into the boil kettle vs how many were in the mash. This is dependent on loss to grain absorption (work to get this to a consistent number) and whether you sparge, etc. Also, given consistent pre-boil volumes across batches on the same system, dependent on pre-boil gravity. When someone says they get 80% efficiency, great. At what gravity? I get 93 at 1.044, ~70 at 1.100. This is where the published grist by weight is meaningless. Everybody's system and process is a bit or a lot different.

Mash efficiency (what everybody just calls 'efficiency') is (conversion efficiency)*(lauter efficiency). Assuming 100% conversion, it's the same deal as the lauter efficiency.

 

[hotbeer]

As well as your processess might not have the same efficiency that the recipe creator had, you also need to look at the volume of wort you have compared to what it should have been. You can add water to the FV to bring a too high OG back down to where it should be.

If you take the Brewing Software link near the top of this page, then you can find the Dilution calculator and figure out how much water is needed to change the SG to what you wish.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/dilution-and-boiloff-gravity-calculator/

 

[Bobby_M]

The practical way to hedge against missing the target gravity is to scale up the grain amounts by 10% across the board. Then when you have all your wort in the pot, measure the gravity and see where you are. Keep in mind that gravity will go up as you boil so factor that in to your assessment.

The other way to deal with it is to always have a few pounds of light dry malt extract on hand to bump it up during the boil.

Either way, unless the recipe author brews BIAB, it's very safe to assume you'll need more grain than the recipe calls for.

Note that an all grain beer "recipe" is

Grain proportions by % of total grain.
Target OG
Mash temp schedule (which drives Target FG)
Yeast Strain
Bitterness (in IBU)
Hopping schedule (which is also broken out by IBU contribution per addition because every pack of hops has a different alpha acid rating so you can't just add the weight that the recipe calls for. You have to adjust the hop additions based on the actual alpha acid on the packs you have acquired.

It is true that grain weights are often listed on recipes but it's a mistake/glitch within the norms of the homebrewing hobby to do so. My evidence for that statement is the fact that "I missed my target OG" is probably the most repeated sentence on any brewing forum.

 

[Bramling Cross]

Just to echo and reinforce what the others have already so nicely said, whenever I decide to brew someone else's recipe the first things that I look at are the recipe's OG and volume. It's up to me, my software, and my notes to achieve the recipe's OG at my brewery's volume. There's a lot of other stuff, but let's keep it simple for now.

This may seem like a new skill, but as a cook you're already used to thinking this way. Let's say you have a recipe for a roast and the writer specifies a 3kg roast, roasted in a 175C oven for 45mins. You have a 2kg roast, you wouldn't follow the recipe as written, right? You'd adjust to compensate for the different weights.

Certainly it's not the same thing, but it's quite similar and it's a skill that you already have you're just not used to using it in the brewing context.

I hope that helps you make a bit more sense of all this.

 

[sibelman]

I dont have a system, haha. Just a big ass 50l pot, a grain bag and a thermometer..

This is all the system you need on brew day. Though a chiller could help, and a pump might save your back.

everything else is just my eficiency

Not so. This:

gravity will go up as you boil

is an important consideration, along with learning how fast your boil reduces your volume (thus increasing your gravity).

One more thing: even if your gravity is "off" you'll still make beer, and possibly excellent beer. Accidents can lead to pleasant surprises. As homebrewing godfather Charlie Papazian famously said, "Relax, don't worry, have a homebrew." (RDWHAHB)

 

[Takeshi_pilis]

Wow guys! Thank you so much for all the comprehensive answers! Will read all of this for a few times to rly get it in my head!

Amazing community!

 

[Skeeter686]

Sh*t load of trub, target of by 3l atleast

Regarding your concern about varying amounts of trub, I've noticed that different grains can produce different amounts of trub for me. Also, since you're just starting out, I'm guessing that you don't mill your own grains. It's possible that the grains were milled slightly differently, which could also affect how much trub you get.

I used to obsess slightly over clean transfers and avoiding trub, but I've been hearing that some trub is actually healthy for the yeast and some people have claimed that they ultimately get clearer beers when they transfer some trub into the fermenter. So, I don't worry about it as much these days. (I also do BIAB.)

As others have mentioned, things may vary be recipe but you may find that you get consistent results with the same recipe the second time around. You may just need to account for a different equipment profile from the recipe creator. And if all else fails, there are techniques for adjusting your original gravity.

Good luck and have fun!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

It is true that grain weights are often listed on recipes but it's a mistake/glitch within the norms of the homebrewing hobby to do so.

The hobby started before recipe software with 5 gal batches. Publishing recipes with weights was a pragmatic approach.

Many of those recipes targeted more than five gal (5.25, 5.5 gal) at the end of the boil to account for variations in trub, boil off rate, etc. At the time, there was additional information (often in forum discussion) on how to scale ingredients and how to identify/fix missing information.

Further, books (and magazine) usually have information that includes common assumptions (efficiency percentages, IBU estimation technique, ...).

I hear that professional brewers think in percentages. They use what works.

Recipes with weights seems to work well for those brewing at home. And recipe software can be used quickly convert the recipe into percentages.

If it (recipes using weights) works for people getting started brewing, is a "glitch"?

40+ years of beginners starting with recipes using weights - and generally continuing with the hobby - seems to be working well for all involved. If that's a "mistake/glitch within the norms of the homebrewing hobby", so be it.

 

[DBhomebrew]

The hobby started before recipe software with 5 gal batches. Publishing recipes with weights was a pragmatic approach.

Maybe it was just Charlie publishing what was pragmatic in his own brewing when much of the homebrewing community brewed just like he did? Our friend of favorite extract recipes posts his hop charges as HBUs. Not very helpful when I want to scale that to my brewery. Without first crunching his recipe as written in the software, I have no idea what the IBU contributions are. But very practical for him within his own system and process. Pull out a recipe, today's bag of EKG, quick A/B=C HBU calc, boom. I've got a lot more number crunching to do if I want to use his recipe in my kitchen.

I hear that professional brewers think in percentages. They use what works.

Indeed

Recipes with weights seems to work well for those brewing at home.

And yet it doesn't. How often do new brewers to the forum learn they can't just take a recipe as written and expect the same output. By weight works when the assumptions are valid. They are often no more than ballpark. I guess it works for the beer is beer, RDWHAHB crowd. I know you brew more intentionally that that.

The more pragmatic way to communicate a grist is by percentage. It would work for any system, any size batch. The only assumption you need is that percentages are percentages. 50% efficiency or 95% efficiency, 1G or 6.5G, 5% C65 is 5% C65. When a fellow brewer at a club meeting asks how much crystal I put in my bitter, 1/2 pound doesn't tell him anything useful. 3G batch? 5, 12? But the difference between 5 or 10% is clear without any other information. Very pragmatic.

 

[Takeshi_pilis]

View attachment 852013


The hobby started before recipe software with 5 gal batches. Publishing recipes with weights was a pragmatic approach.

Many of those recipes targeted more than five gal (5.25, 5.5 gal) at the end of the boil to account for variations in trub, boil off rate, etc. At the time, there was additional information (often in forum discussion) on how to scale ingredients and how to identify/fix missing information.

Further, books (and magazine) usually have information that includes common assumptions (efficiency percentages, IBU estimation technique, ...).

I hear that professional brewers think in percentages. They use what works.

Recipes with weights seems to work well for those brewing at home. And recipe software can be used quickly convert the recipe into percentages.

If it (recipes using weights) works for people getting started brewing, is a "glitch"?

40+ years of beginners starting with recipes using weights - and generally continuing with the hobby - seems to be working well for all involved. If that's a "mistake/glitch within the norms of the homebrewing hobby", so be it.

I mean its nice when you have a spreadsheet with all the grams temps times etc. Without that Im not even sure if I would have started brewing beer.

Some of the recipes I find are just %that %this boil and ur done. Would need to make a ton of research what all that means.

So yea, I agree with you. Recipes basicly are a gift. As I can see myself - for first step I learn to brew, than fix up for mistakes, then maybe replicate something perfectly and then maybe some day think of my own. But yea, recipes are a gift.

Probably failing to follow a recipe hits hard when you dont know what happened and when how to fix it. Otherwise if you ef up, you just analyse and make ir better next time.

I mean my first beer ever was neipa. Lota folks laughed at me for doin that. But the beer came out rly nice. Even the ladies in our family that totaly dont drink beer loved it. Though I efed up measuring the OG. The beer probably layered and showed me 1.050 and the FG was 1.010. I mean I thought I did a mistake brewing but it looked like I did not after cracking my forst bottle. That beer hit like a train.. probably I made something in double ipa realm..

 

[Kickass]

A lot of very good beer can be brewed using a few simplified ingredient lists with no adjuncts or “non traditional” ingredients. A flavorful base malt like Maris Otter or Vienna with 10% or less color/flavor grains (crystal/caramel/biscuit/victory/lightly roasted/etc.) and a simple hop schedule might be a good foundation to build from.

It might be worth learning your system and process with some of these simple yet rewarding brews. What styles do you, family and friends enjoy drinking? Also remember, you don’t have to brew to a specific style. I recently wanted a light, medium and dark beer on tap before our new baby arrived so that’s what I brewed. Here are the recipes I built to achieve that. You’ll notice they’re all very simple. Additionally they were all very tasty.

Light.

Medium

Dark

 

[DBhomebrew]

You’ll notice they’re all very simple. Additionally they were all very tasty.

Most classic styles are.

 

[AlexKay]

First, especially with BIAB, the way the grain is crushed makes a big difference in how much you extract. And typically, brewers that are starting out don’t have their own mill and are at the mercy of their suppliers, who may well not be all that consistent.

Second, “hitting numbers” is wildly overrated. Professionals might have to hit a target ABV for legal reasons; plus, extract is money. Homebrewers shouldn’t care nearly so much. Consistency is good, and it’s worth thinking about it if your own successive batches using the same recipe don’t give the same numbers (doing the same recipe repeatedly is also a good way to learn.) But honestly, not only will a 1.055 beer taste as good as one that’s 1.060 like it’s “supposed” to be, odds are that if you had the two side by side you wouldn’t be able to tell them apart.

 

[Takeshi_pilis]

A lot of very good beer can be brewed using a few simplified ingredient lists with no adjuncts or “non traditional” ingredients. A flavorful base malt like Maris Otter or Vienna with 10% or less color/flavor grains (crystal/caramel/biscuit/victory/lightly roasted/etc.) and a simple hop schedule might be a good foundation to build from.

It might be worth learning your system and process with some of these simple yet rewarding brews. What styles do you, family and friends enjoy drinking? Also remember, you don’t have to brew to a specific style. I recently wanted a light, medium and dark beer on tap before our new baby arrived so that’s what I brewed. Here are the recipes I built to achieve that. You’ll notice they’re all very simple. Additionally they were all very tasty.

Light.

Medium

Dark

Yes I have a feeling thats true. The neipa was rly good. But I think the smash pale ale I made might be as good or event better. Half the price, triple less efort..

 

[Bassman2003]

Maybe I missed it but are you using brewing software? If not, it is worth starting. Once you get your system dialed into the software recipes have a better chance of working on your system because you will be able to see the issues before brewday and fix them.

 

[Takeshi_pilis]

Maybe I missed it but are you using brewing software? If not, it is worth starting. Once you get your system dialed into the software recipes have a better chance of working on your system because you will be able to see the issues before brewday and fix them.

Damn I do not.. Thanx for advice, downloading one now!

 

[micraftbeer]

I haven't seen this sentiment shared yet, but anyone experienced at homebrewing knows it. Or probably any hobby/skill/etc. It's tough at the start. You're gonna make bad beers every now and then. Your numbers aren't gonna come out the way you planned. This absolutely happens.

But the difference between those that make consistently good beers now and those that gave up on the hobby in frustration, is learning a little tip each time something goes wrong. You'll get better, start to hit your numbers and/or know what to tweak in your brew day when things are trending wrong. For the most part, as long as you don't do something really dumb, the beer will probably still be drinkable. Even if it wasn't what you wanted it to taste like.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Probably failing to follow a recipe hits hard when you dont know what happened and when how to fix it.

Measuring pre-boil and post-boil SG can help with monitoring (and adjusting) during the brew session.

With these two measurements, Ccombined with gravity points (#16 above by @DBhomebrew and the ability to measure (temperature adjusted) water volumes in the kettle, you can be in a position to make adjustments (find missing ingredients, adjust water volume or add fermentables). My guess is the recipe software has custom calculators to help with the adjustments. Otherwise, the math isn't hard (it's just tedious).

 

[Steveruch]

Side note: those are short boil times.

Contrary to popular opinion you can make great beer with shorter boil times. I've never done 15 minutes, but routinely do 20 and 30.

 

[sibelman]

Contrary to popular opinion you can make great beer with shorter boil times. I've never done 15 minutes, but routinely do 20 and 30.

Yes, it's funny how rough guides (one hour mash, one hour boil, etc.) become hard and fast rules. Processes that work well for one brewer are embraced by others - not entirely a bad thing, unless they become straightjackets.

Then there's the no-boil concept... That one freaks me out somewhat. I guess there could be a separate thread on what (if anything) constitute hard-and-fast rules, like "ya gotta clean and sanitize everything on the cold side."

 

[WouldBeBrewmaster]

Hi!

I have done 4 beer brews in total. I do BIAB. Not yet owning a brewing system sadly. My 1st and 2nd brews were perfect and spot on on all the numbers.

I planed for two weeks for a back to back brew day today. Mango smash pale ale and blackbery phily sour. Both of my brews were off and it frustrated and demotivated me alot.

Mango pale ale was golden promise and azaca smash. Expected OG had to be 1.056 I got 1.050. Well ok. I got lunch, drank some coffe and went for second brew.

Blackberry phily sour. All seemed good and then bamm. I was lacking around 3l of worth and OG was 1.060 when it had to be around 1.055. After this I got very frustraded and dumped 3 more liters of bottled spring water in to the fermenter to atleast catch up to volume..

God damn I need a beer after this.. Not even sure where I messed up. But I guess its for me to figure out. Though your guys input would be very helpful.

How do you guys recover from bad brew days? Feeling like a morron now..

Don’t be discouraged. It takes more than 3-4 batches to dial in any brew system. Doesn’t matter if it’s a four-vessel steam jacketed professional brew house, or BIAB on a stovetop.

Also keep in mind a professional brewer can legally (in the US) be within 0.3% of the declared ABV on the label. If I buy a 12-pk of 4.0% Notch Session Pils, the liquid can legally be anywhere between 3.7-4.3%.

For a new brewer, I suggest aiming high on your targeted OG. For example, an Altbier is supposed to have an OG of 1.044-1.052 according to the BJCP. Shoot for 1.052 with your recipe.

If you’re way off, or just want to be precise, take a pre-boil gravity reading and supplement with DME as needed. The pros do it all the time.

 

[amber-ale]

Or maybe you have the wrong goals.

Instead of being frustrated because you are not getting EXACTLY the volume and gravity stated in the recipe….

Maybe your goal should be to have fun and produce beer you/your friends like.
As long as you are making tasty beer, approximately the recipe volume/gravity, and ENJOYING your hobby….you are being successful
RAHAB

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Then there's the no-boil concept...

Pre-hopped DME/LME kits are one approach to "no-boil" beers.

There's also the "no boil" DME topics from 2019. While those topics have been quiet for a while, there are people who are winning regional competitions with DME & "no boil" processes. Check the long running "hazy"/NE IPA topics for details. For the winning recipes that I saw, the wort was heated the wort to a whirlpool temperature. "Pasteurization is your friend".

 

[redrocker652002]

OK, so I am going to admit I did not read all the posts, so please disregard if this has already been said. When I first started, I got all worked up about Gravity numbers and not hitting them. If I was off even one point I was pissed. Now, after doing this a few years I realize that even off it is still beer. I have been off as much as 5 points in my OG and could give two rats tails less. It still tasted good. Also, if you can sparge, or get a separate pot and heat that water up to about 170 and soak your bag in that after the mash for about 10 to 15 mins you might grab a few extra points. I had a 5 gallon stock pot that I got with my starter set that I would use. Basically, get the water up to about 170, set your bag in it, slowly, and keep an eye on your water level in the pot as it will rise with the volume of the grains. Let is steep for about 15 mins and pour that into your boil kettle. Most software programs will give you an idea of how to split the water, but I generally do 4 to 5 gallons of mash and then add 3 to 4 gallons of sparge from the cooler after it has steeped for a 5 to 5.5 gallon batch. I have found that in most cases I am within 2 or 3 points, sometimes even going over the OG. But, once again, I think you are getting worked up over something very small. Keep going, take good notes and try and work on being consistent with your process. Once you have the consistency, you can adjust your grain amounts to hit whatever your OG is supposed to be. In case it helps, I use Brewfather for all my recipes and add and subtract my grain to get what I think is the OG I am looking for. But, once again, I rarely hit whatever the recipe says. Most of the time it is over or under by a few points. To me, that works as in the end it is beer. Good luck and keep at it.

 

[redrocker652002]

Or maybe you have the wrong goals.

Instead of being frustrated because you are not getting EXACTLY the volume and gravity stated in the recipe….

Maybe your goal should be to have fun and produce beer you/your friends like.
As long as you are making tasty beer, approximately the recipe volume/gravity, and ENJOYING your hobby….you are being successful
RAHAB

And there it is, Amber ale for the win!!!!!!!! Could not have said it any better than that. Rock On!!!!!!!!