V vessel

[TeamCanada]

Hello, I'm currently brewing a wort kit,brewers best red ale. I'm using the original version of the fast ferment which was called the v vessel and I'm wondering about adding gelatin. I've brewed two other kits and didn't add any which was ok but I was getting that"homebrew" taste. Now I belive that was partially due to not maturing the final product long enough, and the fact the kits say to begin secondary after only 5-7 days. I use a hydrometer and waited 10 days on the previous kits but still think there's Yeast in suspension and residual sugars are to blame. This batch I've left in primary for 15 days. When I remove the ball I was hoping to add my gelatin to the ball and let it mix like that? Ever try it? Will it mix well enough?

 

[aprichman]

Gelatin is used for clarity and will not clean up any off flavors if present. It removes mostly proteins (often associated with chill haze) but should also help yeast flocculate out. The yeast however should not be causing off flavors. If anything the yeast will help convert diacetyl into 2-3 butanedione. By all means use gelatin if you're looking for a bright beer, but don't expect it to have a significant impact on the flavor if you are properly conditioning your bottles.

I also want to add that there's no such thing as a "homebrew" off flavor. Any off flavors in a homebrew are most likely caused by bad brewing practices, which is a reflection of the brewer. I've had many homebrews that compare favorably to world class commercial beers.

It sounds like you've already identified a bad practice that you used in previous batches - bottling after 10 days. I think 15 days is a much better practice. I strongly suggest that you look into your yeast management. IMO a lot of the problems with homebrew is cause by improper pitch rates and a low amount of dissolved oxygen in the yeast. Either of these problems can ramp up ester production. Another potential source for ester production is fermenting at high temperatures. You never mentioned how you're monitoring and controlling your fermentation temperatures.

Learning how to manage yeast is by far the most important part of making beer. It takes knowledge, practice, and a dedication to improving your brewing techniques - but once you learn how to manage your yeast properly you are one step closer to making world class beer.

 

[CA_Mouse]

What do you consider 'homebrew taste'? Most likely you are talking about under attenuated beer. There are several things that could be the cause of this.

1) Old LME
2) Low Yeast pitching rate
3) Expired Yeast packet (see above)
4) Improper fermentation temperature
5) Any combination of the above as well.

I've never used gelatin, but I don't believe that it will change the flavor of your beer, unless you have yeast still in suspension (meaning the beer hasn't finished yet) and that is what you are tasting.

What was your Starting Gravity? Fermentation temperature? Final Gravity? Yeast strain?

 

[TeamCanada]

Thanks for the info guys. The Taste I'm describing is yeasty and a little sweet. It could be lack of age? I am still very new at this so it could be me (probly). Although my hydrometer readings were stable at 1010 on days 7,8,9.because I removed the primary bulb on day 10. Could there still be yeast in suspension that I'm tasting? The more im reading the more I hear that you should leave beer in primary longer 2-3 weeks. Is that just for sediment and bulk aging? My v vessel is a colonel fermenter maybe yeast can stick to the sides so no matter how many bulb changes I do when I run into my kegs I could be washing it in. My hope was that with adding gelatin after the first bulb change it would clean out everything into the bulb. I could remove the bulb. Keg.and perfection

 

[nettekdl]

What temperature are you fermenting at? The most common begging mistake leading to a "homebrew" flavor is usually through a lack of proper pitch rate and out of control fermentation temps

 

[TeamCanada]

My basement stays around 63-70 this time of year. I'm not set up for temp control yet. I've just pitched what they provide in the kit. Coopers yeast. The first batch didn't ferment very vigorusly and the taste was strong. The next batch ( an ipa ) fermented like crazy and I needed a blow off tube. It's been in the keg one month today. The taste is still there but faintly.

 

[tmendick]

How are you handling the LME/DME? A lot of extract brewers swear by adding the majority of extract toward the end of the boil to reduce carmelization

 

[aprichman]

My main suggestions would be the following:

1) Buy better yeast and calculate appropriate pitch rates. Anything from Safale, Wyeast, or White Labs will be a lot better. You may need to use 2 packets of dry yeast or build a starter up from the Wyeast/White Labs yeasts depending on your starting gravity.

2.) Get your fermentation temperatures under control. 63-70F ambient is too warm for ales. You could try a swamp cooler although it would tough due to the shape of the Fast Ferment vessel. Your best bet is probably going to be an old fridge and an STC-1000 controller.

3.) Look into an oxygen setup, the wort needs to have ~1 PPM dissolved oxygen per degree Plato. The yeast need the oxygen to multiply. Low concentrations of dissolved oxygen in beer is responsible for increased ester production.

These are basically the three "pillars" of yeast management in my opinion. Proper pitch rate, providing optimal temperature, and injecting proper amounts of dissolved oxygen into the wort.

 

[TeamCanada]

Great, thanks for all the info. I'm really enjoying this new hobby. I realize there is a lot to learn but I am eager to do so. My red ale has been fermenting now 16 days,what I might do is, remove the primary bulb. When I put the ball back on I will add gelatin either to the ball or to the top of the fermenter and wait another 7 to 10 days at which point I will remove the secondary bulb and see how much sediment is collected and then keg, carbonate, wait 1 month before sampling.

 

[RM-MN]

Great, thanks for all the info. I'm really enjoying this new hobby. I realize there is a lot to learn but I am eager to do so. My red ale has been fermenting now 16 days,what I might do is, remove the primary bulb. When I put the ball back on I will add gelatin either to the ball or to the top of the fermenter and wait another 7 to 10 days at which point I will remove the secondary bulb and see how much sediment is collected and then keg, carbonate, wait 1 month before sampling.

With the time you will have left your beer in the fermenter, I wouldn't wait a month to taste. Maybe a week. That should be long enough to get the CO2 dissolved and any yeast that you stirred up in the transfer to settle back out. Pull the first beer and pour it out. That first pull will collect most of the yeast that may have settled near the pickup tube. After that you may get a little yeast if you let the beer sit for a day or 2 as more will settle out but it should be very little.

 

[TeamCanada]

That's good to hear. I think your right about the yeast settling out when I don't drink for a couple days. The first pint I pour has a slight yeast flavor but the next pint and the ones after that have less and less. The only issue is it it's not going away. I'm not sure if pulling a pint stirs the yeast up again or if its still in suspension The Keg is about two thirds full I'm wondering if I should add gelatin and force it down?
My next batch has been fermenting about 20 days now and I think I'm going to rack into a glass carboy and add gelatin so I can see what I was previously sending into my kegs. Not being able to see into the the vessel has me wondering if trub and yeast are sticking to the sides and being sent into the keg.

 

[RM-MN]

That's good to hear. I think your right about the yeast settling out when I don't drink for a couple days. The first pint I pour has a slight yeast flavor but the next pint and the ones after that have less and less. The only issue is it it's not going away. I'm not sure if pulling a pint stirs the yeast up again or if its still in suspension The Keg is about two thirds full I'm wondering if I should add gelatin and force it down?
My next batch has been fermenting about 20 days now and I think I'm going to rack into a glass carboy and add gelatin so I can see what I was previously sending into my kegs. Not being able to see into the the vessel has me wondering if trub and yeast are sticking to the sides and being sent into the keg.

There have been reports from people who have that or similar fermenters that the yeast does stick to the sloping sides of the vessel so the process of draining the beer might be stirring it up. I don't have one so this is all anecdotal.