Using LME

[Sailor323]

As I mentioned in my introductory post, 35 or so years ago I made what I considered a decent brew with Blue Ribbon LME. I used one 3 lb can, additional water, brown sugar and some other minor ingredients to make a 5 gallon batch. I recently started a batch of ale with a 3 pound container of LME. I used it straight, no added water beyond the amount needed to bring up the SG to 1.054 or so. 2 questions 1) Is it possible to extend the extract with sugar and water? I suspect I already know the answer to this, just wondering. Second question, most recipes that I came across include the instruction to boil the water extract mixture for 60 minutes. Other instructions say that hold the mixture at 160 degrees for 15 minutes (pasteurization temp and time). Is it really necessary to boil it at all?

 

[IslandLizard]

Pre-hopped extracts should never be boiled. So make sure what kind of LME you have there.

It's surely not necessary to boil (unhopped) malt extracts (i.e., LME or DME) either. Adding to hot or boiling water and keeping at pasteurization temps of 150-160F for 15-20 minutes is plenty. IMO, it tastes better if not boiled for an hour.

Extract brewers, especially those doing partial boils with top up water in the fermenter, should boil no more than half (less is even better) and add the remainder at flameout. This to prevent overly caramelizing the wort, unless you brew Scottish Ales or Barleywines.

When you're not using pre-hopped extracts, you do need to boil the hops to get bittering. A 30-60' boil is fine to get your IBUs. Either boil in water or a low gravity wort, again adding your extracts or the remainder at flameout.

If you're steeping grains, you could do so while heating before the boil, and boil the resulting potion/wort (after removing the grains) for 30-60'.

Or steep on the side and add the steeped potion later and pasteurize at 150-160F for 15-20'. I often do that with dark grains (add after the boil, when it has chilled to 170F) as I think they taste better/fresher when not boiled for an hour.

 

[Sailor323]

Tks, Island Lizard. I kind of thought the same. I'm using non-hopped extract and I'm not adding hops to it.

 

[VikeMan]

Tks, Island Lizard. I kind of thought the same. I'm using non-hopped extract and I'm not adding hops to it.

What kind of beer are you making without hops?

 

[IslandLizard]

Tks, Island Lizard. I kind of thought the same. I'm using non-hopped extract and I'm not adding hops to it.

What kind of beer are you making without hops?

My thoughts too, what kind of "beer" is that?

Beer consists of 4 main ingredients:

1. Water
2. Malt (or grain)
3. Hops
4. Yeast

 

[dnr]

So to prevent a boil over, I could technically boil my hop additions for however long, then add my LME at 15 or flameout?
That would be so easy if that is what you're saying.

I was just thinking to myself, why would I need to boil LME for an hour if it's already extracted sugar from malt?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

So to prevent a boil over, I could technically boil my hop additions for however long, then add my LME at 15 or flameout?
That would be so easy if that is what you're saying.

I was just thinking to myself, why would I need to boil LME for an hour if it's already extracted sugar from malt?

BYO article (Oct 2002): Boil Hops, Not Extract - Brew Your Own . If it's behind their paywall, then Brewing better beer with Malt Extract (both apparently by the same person).

 

[IslandLizard]

So to prevent a boil over, I could technically boil my hop additions for however long, then add my LME at 15 or flameout?
That would be so easy if that is what you're saying.

I was just thinking to myself, why would I need to boil LME for an hour if it's already extracted sugar from malt?

That's what I understand:

• There is no need to boil LME or DME (or heat beyond pasteurization).
• Hops do not need to be boiled in wort, they can be boiled (or steeped) in plain water. The slightly higher pH of water (compared to wort) helps with better extraction and isomerization, while the lower gravity (no sugars present) increases hop utilization.

In some cases where extra wort caramelization is desired, boiling for extended time will help. The more concentrated the wort, the more caramelization and Maillard reactions take place.*

* I always use wort for making sugar syrups, not water.

 

[Sailor323]

My thoughts too, what kind of "beer" is that?

Beer consists of 4 main ingredients:

1. Water
2. Malt (or grain)
3. Hops
4. Yeast

I get it. I recently made an all grain beer, an American ale. My wife doesn't like a hopped beer like that or IPAs. So, I thought I'd try this. I don't have a great deal of hope. Looking at my recipes from 35 years ago using Blue Ribbon, I see that the extract was hopped. At any rate, I'd appreciate any recommendations for an LME that produces a lightly hopped beer.

 

[VikeMan]

I get it. I recently made an all grain beer, an American ale. My wife doesn't like a hopped beer like that or IPAs. So, I thought I'd try this. I don't have a great deal of hope. Looking at my recipes from 35 years ago using Blue Ribbon, I see that the extract was hopped. At any rate, I'd appreciate any recommendations for an LME that produces a lightly hopped beer.

Is it bitterness she doesn't like? Or is it other hop aromas/flavors?

 

[IslandLizard]

I'd appreciate any recommendations for an LME that produces a lightly hopped beer.

I'd stay away from pre-hopped extracts all together. You're not going to get the finest hop flavors and aroma from them. They are mostly a large compromise between ease of use and quality, in favor of the first.

For much better beer, instead of using prehopped extracts, just boil or steep some (noble) hops in your water or wort for 10 minutes to an hour.

To curb bitterness use either or all of the following guidelines:

• select hops with low %AA
• use smaller hop amounts
• select lower temps
• at shorter duration

For example 1 oz of Saaz in a 5 gallon batch, steeped at 170F for 10' may add only 10 IBUs. But leaves a wonderful fresh, slightly floral hop aroma.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

My wife doesn't like a hopped beer like that or IPAs

Are there styles of beer that she does like?

I have friends / family that avoid APAs/IPAs/NEPAs, but enjoy porters/browns/stouts/..

 

[Sailor323]

Is it bitterness she doesn't like? Or is it other hop aromas/flavors?

She doesn't like the bitterness.

 

[Sailor323]

Are there styles of beer that she does like?

I have friends / family that avoid APAs/IPAs/NEPAs, but enjoy porters/browns/stouts/..

She does like Smithwicks, guiness (but it's too filling), as for regular beers she does like Modelo.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Maybe find a clone recipe for Smithwicks (Irish Red?), brew it "as is", and see what she thinks?

I won't speculate as to what it is about "bitterness"/"hoppiness" that she doesn't like. I have friends/family that appear to have a similar response. Over time, I've found recipes that they enjoy, but I haven't found a common pattern to styles / hops / brewing processes that guarantees success on the first attempt.

 

[Steveruch]

My thoughts too, what kind of "beer" is that?

Beer consists of 4 main ingredients:

1. Water
2. Malt (or grain)
3. Hops
4. Yeast

Hops weren't used in beer for many years.

 

[VikeMan]

Hops weren't used in beer for many years.

This is true. But other ingredients were used for bittering.

 

[IslandLizard]

Hops weren't used in beer for many years.

You'd have to go back at least 2 centuries.

This is true. But other ingredients were used for bittering.

Exactly:
https://www.brewersofpa.org/alternatives-to-hops/

 

[Steveruch]

You'd have to go back at least 2 centuries.

Exactly:
https://www.brewersofpa.org/alternatives-to-hops/

More like 3 or 4.
I'm ready for another hop shortage.

 

[IslandLizard]

35 or so years ago I made what I considered a decent brew with Blue Ribbon LME. I used one 3 lb can, additional water, brown sugar and some other minor ingredients to make a 5 gallon batch.

That's a (low) hopped malt extract. Those kind of beers have a bittering level of around 10 IBU.
https://untappd.com/b/pabst-brewing-company-pabst-blue-ribbon/3883
You could get much better ingredients for a beer like that today using DME and some steeping grain instead of a can of (unhopped) LME. Some brew stores sell LME tapped from a vat, but freshness can be an issue. Hence using dry malt extract.

There is no need for using brown sugar, just use some regular sugar or corn sugar (dextrose). The molasses in brown sugar can cause weird metallic off flavors during fermentation, IMO.

And definitely use real hops. Pelletized hops are generally best to use as they keep better during storage, which should be in vacuum sealed or Nitrogen flushed oxygen barrier mylar bags and kept deep frozen. Refrigerator storage is OK for the short term, but need to be used up within say a year (or 2), as they lose potency faster.

If you have a way to ferment at cooler temps, say around 50-55F you can use a real lager yeast. But they also need a month (or 2) of ice cold storage to become nice and clear. Otherwise use a clean ale yeast at 65F. Using a good dry yeast is fine, to keep things simple.

 

[beeryalater]

Pre-hopped extracts should never be boiled. So make sure what kind of LME you have there.

It's surely not necessary to boil (unhopped) malt extracts (i.e., LME or DME) either. Adding to hot or boiling water and keeping at pasteurization temps of 150-160F for 15-20 minutes is plenty. IMO, it tastes better if not boiled for an hour.

Extract brewers, especially those doing partial boils with top up water in the fermenter, should boil no more than half (less is even better) and add the remainder at flameout. This to prevent overly caramelizing the wort, unless you brew Scottish Ales or Barleywines.

Hello! I'm going to add my question here too since I'll also be doing a pre-hopped LME this weekend - my first home brew! FWIW, I posted my question in another thread, but figured I'd get more input here too.

It came with a kit. Cooper's Hefe Wheat and 2+ lbs of "Alexander's Wheat LME," which I believe is unhopped, but I am not sure. It also didn't come with any additional hops. Instructions from the supplier say to put both LMEs in the kettle and boil for 15 minutes.

From what I understand, this is mostly, if not entirely, for pasteurization. So would you recommend I also follow the guidelines you list here and and keep them at pasteurization temperatures, rather than boiling them?

I plan on putting about 3 gallons in my kettle and mixing in colder water when it goes to the fermenter. I think this would make it a partial boil (?) but just wanted clarify.

Thanks! I'm still new here but I'm loving all the activity and helpfulness in this forum. Really looking forward to learning and more.

 

[madscientist451]

She does like Smithwicks, guiness (but it's too filling), as for regular beers she does like Modelo.

You can probably find a Modelo clone recipe that uses LME, although I would suggest using DME instead, just use a neutral ale yeast and about 1/2 oz Mt Hood or Hallertau hops in 5 gallons and see if she likes it.
Edit: I think Modelo has corn in it, you can use corn syrup instead of sugar, I've experimented with that and the beer comes out pretty good.
So it would be Extract, corn syrup, heat to just below boiling, boil a few quarts of hop tea for 15 mins, toss that in, chill, add yeast and your done.

 

[Sailor323]

Thanks to everyone. Some really good ideas here. I like the idea of a hops tea. Sounds like a good way to add a little bitterness to the beer without boiling the wort. Also, finding a clone extract for something she likes is promising. Meanwhile, I'll stick with IPAs for myself

 

[Sailor323]

OK, I did a little research. First of all I found out what IBU refers to. Then I found out that Modelo Especial has an IBU of 19. So, I conclude that my wife likes a hopped beer with an IBU of 19. Then I found that things get complicated when trying to determine how much hops to add to a wort in order to achieve 19 IBUs. I learned that it depends on the kind of hops, the Alpha Acid Units. Who knew it could be all that complicated? Let's say that I want to make beer using 3 lbs of unhopped LME and want to add 2 qts of hop tea to bring the wort up to 3 gallons. Is there a ball park way to determine how much hops and how long to boil the tea in order to achieve about 19 IBUs in 3 gallons?

 

[Steveruch]

Thanks to everyone. Some really good ideas here. I like the idea of a hops tea. Sounds like a good way to add a little bitterness to the beer without boiling the wort. Also, finding a clone extract for something she likes is promising. Meanwhile, I'll stick with IPAs for myself

You don't have to boil anything to get a low level of bitterness. Hop isomerization begins at 185f. So a steep at 190+ for 15-20 minutes will add a low level of bitterness and pasteurize at the same time. Although extract doesnt really need to be pasteurized.

 

[ncbrewer]

Hops do not need to be boiled in wort, they can be boiled (or steeped) in plain water. The slightly higher pH of water (compared to wort) helps with better extraction and isomerization, while the lower gravity (no sugars present) increases hop utilization.

I can't say from experience, but this Beersmith article states "I recommend adding a small amount of malt extract (perhaps 15-25%) early in the boil if using separate hops. The sugars and enzymes in the extract aid in extracting alpha acids (bitterness) from the hops. Boiling hops with a small amount of extract will result in smoother hop flavors and appropriate bitterness that you can’t achieve with plain water alone." I've seen this, and the opposite, several places. I decided to use enough early extract to have about a 1.040 SG boil. That way I'm getting less darkening of the wort without risking a harsh bitterness. I'm guessing this depends on your water chemistry.

Edit: Here is the Beersmith link:Better Beer with Late Malt Extract Additions | Home Brewing Beer Blog by BeerSmith™

 

[IslandLizard]

Hop isomerization begins at 185f.

That must be from an old source. According to newer research (Scott Janish, The New IPA, 2019) alpha acid isomerization starts somewhere around 140-145F. In NEIPAs we get very decent bittering from whirlpool hops ("hop stands") at 150F.

For example, using 90 grams (~3 oz) of a hop mix with an average of 15.5 %AA, according to BeerSmith 3 (and other sources) I gain:
9.9 IBU at 170F for 10' (1st whirlpool addition)
8.4 IBU at 150F for 30' (2nd whirlpool addition)
These may well be conservative estimates. Together with the 15 IBU from a relatively small 8 gram Warrior addition at 60', the resulting beer tastes more bitter than the calculated/estimated 34 IBU. More like 40-45 IBU.

 

[IslandLizard]

I can't say from experience, but this Beersmith article states "I recommend adding a small amount of malt extract (perhaps 15-25%) early in the boil if using separate hops. The sugars and enzymes in the extract aid in extracting alpha acids (bitterness) from the hops. Boiling hops with a small amount of extract will result in smoother hop flavors and appropriate bitterness that you can’t achieve with plain water alone." I've seen this, and the opposite, several places. I decided to use enough early extract to have about a 1.040 SG boil. That way I'm getting less darkening of the wort without risking a harsh bitterness. I'm guessing this depends on your water chemistry.

I don't know where Brad got that notion from. IIRC, Palmer wrote some similarly in How to Brew.
There's been discussion about this before.

That would be a good exbeeriment, doing a side by side comparison!
I would like to see some pH measurements along with that, too.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Bring back a comment I made earlier ...

I won't speculate as to what it is about "bitterness"/"hoppiness" that she doesn't like. I have friends/family that appear to have a similar response. Over time, I've found recipes that they enjoy, but I haven't found a common pattern to styles / hops / brewing processes that guarantees success on the first attempt.

For the "peeps" that I occasionally brew for (who are "hoppy"-adverse), I am cautious about 1) using late addition hops, and 2) which hops I brew with. Antecodals: I tried magnum a couple of times, that didn't work for them. EKG (same software estimated IBUs) was ok in darker beers. Chinook @60 & @45 in a barleywine (SN Bigfoot clone): not a problem.

It may have something to do with specific hop oils in specific concentrations from specific varieties - and the combination of 60 minute boils and early hop additions cause those oils to be boiled off.

 

[Steveruch]

That must be from an old source. According to newer research (Scott Janish, The New IPA, 2019) alpha acid isomerization starts somewhere around 140-145F. In NEIPAs we get very decent bittering from whirlpool hops ("hop stands") at 150F.

For example, using 90 grams (~3 oz) of a hop mix with an average of 15.5 %AA, according to BeerSmith 3 (and other sources) I gain:
9.9 IBU at 170F for 10' (1st whirlpool addition)
8.4 IBU at 150F for 30' (2nd whirlpool addition)
These may well be conservative estimates. Together with the 15 IBU from a relatively small 8 gram Warrior addition at 60', the resulting beer tastes more bitter than 34 IBU. More like 40-45 IBU.

I haven't read Janish. Good to know.